There are a few items whose prices are really high. Specifically, ego-items with excellent/large bonuses, like RoS, Westies, etc. This creates a large amount of wealth in short order for players who essentially have nothing to spend it on. (See other posts in this forum for ideas to solve that problem.) The bottom scummers' massive buildup of wealth sends ripples through the game economy. Essentially you have out-of-control capitalism when a small handful of high level players "have everything" and don't need anyone else's stuff, although occasional hardcore purists can still try a hard challenge and only use NPC shops. Now I'm not advocating socialism, but rather applying some kind of control that causes an inversion of this J-curve of wealth building.
Therefore I propose that we significantly reduce the selling price, i.e. the sum you get when you sell certain items at the shop, as opposed to the price you pay for them.
We should also increase the purchase price of higher-level goods, perhaps by causing the shops to apply an exponential factor (LUT would be fine) based on the item's normal allocation depth and possibly rarity. This should not factor into the shops' bidding on your items, but only be applied to the new price tag after you sell to the shop.
It's either this or make ego-items with large bonuses less common. I'd prefer to find large vaults with lots of good loot, myself, and being one of the elite few to have a +18 RoS would be a great ego boost.
Some item selling prices are too high
Some item selling prices are too high
By appreciation, we make excellence in others our own property. (Voltaire)
Re: Some item selling prices are too high
Har har... LUT... loot... :P
Becoming incurably rich by selling loot from the bottom isn't exclusive to MAngband -- it happens in the single player game as well. You'll find yourself with a million gold and nothing to spend it on unless a really nice item pops up in the Black Market. The difference is that you can only sell items at something like 30k each in normal Angband. At some point in MAngband history, the shop purses were multiplied by 10 so now you can get something like 300k for each item. You could always revert them back to curb the growth of wealth, but then people will feel ripped off when they find an expensive item they want to sell.
Becoming incurably rich by selling loot from the bottom isn't exclusive to MAngband -- it happens in the single player game as well. You'll find yourself with a million gold and nothing to spend it on unless a really nice item pops up in the Black Market. The difference is that you can only sell items at something like 30k each in normal Angband. At some point in MAngband history, the shop purses were multiplied by 10 so now you can get something like 300k for each item. You could always revert them back to curb the growth of wealth, but then people will feel ripped off when they find an expensive item they want to sell.
Re: Some item selling prices are too high
The whole "problem" here is that those who wants to buy a speed ring +10 will usually be both able and willing to fork up that huge pile of gold that most people have decided is the "right" price for it (Currently 1M). For most players it's just not an option to not have that speed.
I'm pretty sure that the best solution is to lower the value of the smaller speed rings and make speed rings generally harder to find.
Having a different sell/buy price to the shops for speed rings (and maybe some other items) definitely seems like a good idea.
It would make sense if shopkeepers, even the most fair and honest ones... would get greedy once in a while when they got the chance to buy something that's in such high demand.
So maybe just flag some types of items with "store_greed" or similar and they'll automatically sell them for twice the buying price.
I think the right result would be something like this:
Shop owners buying a +10 for 500k, +9 for 400k, +8 for 300k, +7 for 250k, +6 for 200k, +5 for 150k, +4 for 125k +3 and less for 100k and selling all this for twice the price. So a +7 for example would cost the player 500k... Take a lot of money out of the game.
However, about economy and player wealth:
One important thing to remember is that I've played Zaphod now since Oct 05 and until I tried to take on Morgoth a few months ago now and tragically died (Morgoth hit some 12-13 blows in a row, no misses, will post the log from this eventually...) I had only died once before in that time. So when I have a few hundred millions worth of AU it's not strange at all. I've basically been supplying the entire mangband population with all their speed/DSM/etc... needs the last two years pretty much on my own.
But definitely with you on an increase for some higher level goods, I made a post about updated weapon prices, based on their bonuses, rarity and such that would be nice... I'd like to have a look at all the items and suggest new prices for every item in the game. But for specific goodies like a Blade of Chaos of Extra Attacks +16,+15 +2 (as used in the examples from that previous post...) there'd have to be a much more complicated solution I guess.
The RNG spits out a few fantastic items now and then and I'd hate it if that didn't happen. And the game would be a lot less addicting if it wasn't for the rare chance that you can stumble across something totally awesome at any time.
I'm pretty sure that the best solution is to lower the value of the smaller speed rings and make speed rings generally harder to find.
Having a different sell/buy price to the shops for speed rings (and maybe some other items) definitely seems like a good idea.
It would make sense if shopkeepers, even the most fair and honest ones... would get greedy once in a while when they got the chance to buy something that's in such high demand.
So maybe just flag some types of items with "store_greed" or similar and they'll automatically sell them for twice the buying price.
I think the right result would be something like this:
Shop owners buying a +10 for 500k, +9 for 400k, +8 for 300k, +7 for 250k, +6 for 200k, +5 for 150k, +4 for 125k +3 and less for 100k and selling all this for twice the price. So a +7 for example would cost the player 500k... Take a lot of money out of the game.
However, about economy and player wealth:
One important thing to remember is that I've played Zaphod now since Oct 05 and until I tried to take on Morgoth a few months ago now and tragically died (Morgoth hit some 12-13 blows in a row, no misses, will post the log from this eventually...) I had only died once before in that time. So when I have a few hundred millions worth of AU it's not strange at all. I've basically been supplying the entire mangband population with all their speed/DSM/etc... needs the last two years pretty much on my own.
But definitely with you on an increase for some higher level goods, I made a post about updated weapon prices, based on their bonuses, rarity and such that would be nice... I'd like to have a look at all the items and suggest new prices for every item in the game. But for specific goodies like a Blade of Chaos of Extra Attacks +16,+15 +2 (as used in the examples from that previous post...) there'd have to be a much more complicated solution I guess.
The RNG spits out a few fantastic items now and then and I'd hate it if that didn't happen. And the game would be a lot less addicting if it wasn't for the rare chance that you can stumble across something totally awesome at any time.
-- Mangband Project Team Member
Re: Some item selling prices are too high
This topic has come up before, and raises some interesting and difficult questions.
One problem that can arise from collapsing the sell-cost curve is that the cheaper you make the high-end items, the more accessible they are to the lower-level players. If I, a level 50 player, can only sell a rare item for 50k to the store instead of 450k, then the effective value of that item to me is now 50k: no reason why I wouldnt, then, sell it to a low level player for 50k.
The issue, I think, is that price controls cause more headaches than they solve. The real problem, I feel, and as Ashi aludes to above, is that we don't currently drain money from the high end players. This is what led me to think about rents and taxes for things, that scale strongly to the high end (ie, for example, my house idea makes the "rent" on a smaller house affordable to a low end player, but can be scaled to make it pretty beefy for a high level player with a number of castles). The art "offerings" idea was a stab in this direction as well - the really beefy artifacts have a cost associated with them that scales to their power, and makes the maintentance of them a central focus of the high level players life.
These are all ideas in the "lets drain money from the high end economy' realm.
So, to be clear here - I think there's nothing wrong with high level players getting money on a scale that is signifcantly different from that of the low level players. The problem is that the money sits there, and has nowhere to go.
This can also temp high level players to be less stringent on choosing sell values for their items - when you ahve 50 million in cash sitting in your house, there is no real impetus to charge an honest (and steep) price for a balance dsm, a beefy RoS, or a phat ego weapon. If we can come up with ways to sensibly mop up some of that cash, we can hopefully get closer to a point where money matters as much for the high end player as it does for the low end player. Lowering sell values of the top gear would really, I fear, just scale the issue differently, but still leave it present - and maybe have create its own tack-on problems as well.
So, put another way, what things are going on for the high end player that we might say they take for granted, and that we can try to introduce an economic cost for?
One problem that can arise from collapsing the sell-cost curve is that the cheaper you make the high-end items, the more accessible they are to the lower-level players. If I, a level 50 player, can only sell a rare item for 50k to the store instead of 450k, then the effective value of that item to me is now 50k: no reason why I wouldnt, then, sell it to a low level player for 50k.
The issue, I think, is that price controls cause more headaches than they solve. The real problem, I feel, and as Ashi aludes to above, is that we don't currently drain money from the high end players. This is what led me to think about rents and taxes for things, that scale strongly to the high end (ie, for example, my house idea makes the "rent" on a smaller house affordable to a low end player, but can be scaled to make it pretty beefy for a high level player with a number of castles). The art "offerings" idea was a stab in this direction as well - the really beefy artifacts have a cost associated with them that scales to their power, and makes the maintentance of them a central focus of the high level players life.
These are all ideas in the "lets drain money from the high end economy' realm.
So, to be clear here - I think there's nothing wrong with high level players getting money on a scale that is signifcantly different from that of the low level players. The problem is that the money sits there, and has nowhere to go.
This can also temp high level players to be less stringent on choosing sell values for their items - when you ahve 50 million in cash sitting in your house, there is no real impetus to charge an honest (and steep) price for a balance dsm, a beefy RoS, or a phat ego weapon. If we can come up with ways to sensibly mop up some of that cash, we can hopefully get closer to a point where money matters as much for the high end player as it does for the low end player. Lowering sell values of the top gear would really, I fear, just scale the issue differently, but still leave it present - and maybe have create its own tack-on problems as well.
So, put another way, what things are going on for the high end player that we might say they take for granted, and that we can try to introduce an economic cost for?
Re: Some item selling prices are too high
Well, how does wealth work in the real world?
How did it work in a time when people adventured into a dungeon, killing monsters with their swords?
Well, the first one is easy, typically rich people only gets richer and STILL buy pretty much anything they want.
The difference is that in MAngband the most expensive thing you can buy (normally) is a giant castle that might cost ~10M. And there's so few of those that once you've bought a few, the richest players will still have tons of gold left.
So, as for alternative solutions:
As suggested in the past, let players build castles. If they find a level in the wilderness, they must first buy the entire level for a massive amount, THEN they can build whatever they want there, a normal house with whatever dimensions they'd like or pick a number from the vault list.
I'm not sure if the wilderness levels layout should be changeable, in a way I think I'd prefer not. It'd be more fun to run around the wilderness trying to find a great looking level, maybe with some small lakes, maybe some mountains... Since you can recall to any random wilderness level I don't think the prices should vary a lot, though they should be higher in the immediate area around town, maybe up to 5-6 levels from town, since this would allow people to visit their levels more easily.
Historically, wealthy families owned lots of land and at least one great castle, so in a way each wilderness level should probably not be insanely expensive, I think around 10M would probably be right. Maybe 20M or higher for those closer to town. 1 and 2 locations from town would still be the way they are now, with some small and some larger houses, but not directly buyable. There'd maybe be an outer town wall outside this.
But the castles themselves should probably range from at least 2-3M for the smallest ones and up to maybe 100-200M for the huge ones. This seems kinda historically correct.
And again, I think random supercharged versions of the traditional shops appearing in the wilderness, say maybe 1/1000 or 1/10000 chance of generation or something would be a great idea.
Prices could be 10x or 100x or 250x normal black market price. A *Healing* potion would cost from 60-70k and up to 1,5-2M. Maybe prices should be slightly random within that range, or there should be several different supershops, with their own prices and special goods. The danger here is that mid level people scum the wilderness for supershops and find one that sells great gear for say only 10x... and then sell it to the high level characters for 250x, which would mess with balance. Guess that'd have to be considered and somehow fixed.
I think what we want is something that gives access to high quality objects in higher quantities than we see today, but at somewhat the same rarity and at exceptionally high prices. I still don't think it's right for any shop to have anything BETTER than the dungeon has, but each time you enter a wilderness level more than halfway to the end of the world you should have this tiny chance to see a special shop generated there.
Actually the more I think about it I think the chance shouldn't be as low as 1/1000, since that almost guarantees a special shop in a rather short trip... And the same way as with level generation in the dungeon, you need to have been on the level at least as long as it takes to run from one side of the level to the other end of it, you can't just run back and forth.... So maybe 1/10000 or 1/20000 or something. Or more. On fast levels it only takes a few seconds to run through it. And if a level has been visited recently it can't generate a supershop in a so or so long time...
I guess this too should be moved to a new thread.
How did it work in a time when people adventured into a dungeon, killing monsters with their swords?
Well, the first one is easy, typically rich people only gets richer and STILL buy pretty much anything they want.
The difference is that in MAngband the most expensive thing you can buy (normally) is a giant castle that might cost ~10M. And there's so few of those that once you've bought a few, the richest players will still have tons of gold left.
So, as for alternative solutions:
As suggested in the past, let players build castles. If they find a level in the wilderness, they must first buy the entire level for a massive amount, THEN they can build whatever they want there, a normal house with whatever dimensions they'd like or pick a number from the vault list.
I'm not sure if the wilderness levels layout should be changeable, in a way I think I'd prefer not. It'd be more fun to run around the wilderness trying to find a great looking level, maybe with some small lakes, maybe some mountains... Since you can recall to any random wilderness level I don't think the prices should vary a lot, though they should be higher in the immediate area around town, maybe up to 5-6 levels from town, since this would allow people to visit their levels more easily.
Historically, wealthy families owned lots of land and at least one great castle, so in a way each wilderness level should probably not be insanely expensive, I think around 10M would probably be right. Maybe 20M or higher for those closer to town. 1 and 2 locations from town would still be the way they are now, with some small and some larger houses, but not directly buyable. There'd maybe be an outer town wall outside this.
But the castles themselves should probably range from at least 2-3M for the smallest ones and up to maybe 100-200M for the huge ones. This seems kinda historically correct.
And again, I think random supercharged versions of the traditional shops appearing in the wilderness, say maybe 1/1000 or 1/10000 chance of generation or something would be a great idea.
Prices could be 10x or 100x or 250x normal black market price. A *Healing* potion would cost from 60-70k and up to 1,5-2M. Maybe prices should be slightly random within that range, or there should be several different supershops, with their own prices and special goods. The danger here is that mid level people scum the wilderness for supershops and find one that sells great gear for say only 10x... and then sell it to the high level characters for 250x, which would mess with balance. Guess that'd have to be considered and somehow fixed.
I think what we want is something that gives access to high quality objects in higher quantities than we see today, but at somewhat the same rarity and at exceptionally high prices. I still don't think it's right for any shop to have anything BETTER than the dungeon has, but each time you enter a wilderness level more than halfway to the end of the world you should have this tiny chance to see a special shop generated there.
Actually the more I think about it I think the chance shouldn't be as low as 1/1000, since that almost guarantees a special shop in a rather short trip... And the same way as with level generation in the dungeon, you need to have been on the level at least as long as it takes to run from one side of the level to the other end of it, you can't just run back and forth.... So maybe 1/10000 or 1/20000 or something. Or more. On fast levels it only takes a few seconds to run through it. And if a level has been visited recently it can't generate a supershop in a so or so long time...
I guess this too should be moved to a new thread.
-- Mangband Project Team Member