Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

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Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by Warrior » Sun 30.08.2009, 14:10

Hi all.

We've now played for a good while with the "new" items from Angband 3.0.6 and I think it's about time we sit down and evaluate their performance and if they should be part of MAngband in the next version.

This thread was sparked by finding some old notes for a forum post in a .txt file on my computer which I can't seem to locate in the forums for some reason. Maybe I never posted it, but here goes my original thoughts about the new items:
(Please note my revised 2009 comments in bold, after the original thoughts)


They've added/modified 20 items, excluding lights.

It seems as if they paid little attention to Tolkien when giving the new items names, especially the new gloves and amulets seem un-tolkien'ish to me.
We don't need their new lightsources, we have that covered already.

New boots:
There are two new boots. I don't think we should add either.
1: Stability gives res nexus and feather fall. Honestly I don't like those and I don't see the point of them. They won't do any damage to the game but to me they just seem annoying.
2: Elvenkind seems unrelated to other elvenkind-type of items. 1d5 stealth and speed is nice however. In my opinion, ditch them. They don't belong here.
As time has passed by I see even less need for the expanded Elvenkind series, especially when they're not really themed that well. Stability boots have sort of found their place but I'd rather add some MAngband specific boots tailored especially towards our game

New gloves:
There are two new gloves. I don't think we should add either.
1: Gloves of Thievery are pointless. Seems they're trying to just make some fancy class specific items or something... We already have agility gloves. No need.
2: "of Combat" could've been promising but the aggravate makes them useless. 1d4 and they'd probably be worth it.
Both these gloves are fairly popular (I think) and they do add some variety to the game. Again I would rather create MAngband specific gloves than these, who are (like so many of the new egos from vanilla) named sort of randomly/non-tolkien'ish).

New headwear:
There are three new crowns. I don't think we should add the first two, they don't fit in. The updated Lordliness crown however is fine.
1: Crown of night and day: This could've been quite useful, since mangband has a flawed pool of high resists (can't get light/dark from random high res items)... Either way could be useful but few if any would chose it instead of ESP/power/magi. Pretty much useless.
2: Crown of Serenity: Resist fear would certainly be useful, also res conf and sound... seems like a useful item that'd possibly open up some slots, but not very useful for high-end players with the balance DSM setup.
3: Crown of Lordliness: updated to be equal to the magi crown with it's random ability and resist fear it'd be very useful.
I still think the same way about these, they do add a little more variety obviously but it's hardly important.

New shields:
There are two new shields. We don't need the Elvenkind but the Preservation shield fits in.
1:Shield of Elvenkind: We already have a shield that gives a high resistance, Avari. There's really no need to bring in the whole elvenkind family when they're this weak anyway.
2: Shield of Preservation: Disen res, life draining, another high res, sust fight stats... not bad but also covered by the Balance DSM setup. Would open up for alternative body armor choices but thats not very likely anyway.
The preservation shield is a nice item. The elvenkind shield is meaningless.

New cloaks:
There are two new cloaks. Maybe the protection cloak needed an update, but, this is not the way to go. No good. Magi cloak? Unsure. Magi Robe better.
1: Cloak of Protection: When all the other new mangband specific ego's were created I also suggested a cloak like this, Cloak of Orma (Orma means Earth) that was supposed to resist shards. But - a new cloak with that name and that resist? No and no.
2: Cloak of the Magi: This seems like a very good item, though you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd prefer it on a kolla or aman, unless they were desperate for the ability on this one. Leaves the player with some more choices.
The Magi cloak is very popular I believe but I still believe a Magi robe would make more sense. Their updated protection cloak never made much sense to me but it's been here now and it does no harm.

New armor:
One new piece of armor and it's not too bad. Mid phase armor.
1: Armour (Dwarven): Gives 1d2 str and con, infra and FA but seems too weak to really be an alternative to anything. However could be good to get another mid-phase armor, around the resistance/elvenkind armors, for those who already have the lows. Maybe not a bad option.
I have made quite a few new armors that will fall into this segment (and then some). However this may still be a worthwhile item, especially for the midgame.

New digger:
1: Digger of Earthquakes: This is pretty good. I like it. More digging power and earthquake vs monster.
I still like these. Though I think I'd rather create diggers with dwarf-specific names (for the dwarf specific diggers of course...

New shooters:
There are three new shooters. We adressed this with our Lothlorien and Numenor shooters. The buckland sling is a must-have though. The others not.
1: Sling of Buckland: Fun little addition. Gives a small dex bonus and would deal out some decent damage for a sling. Could probably be added without making any problems.
2: Bow of Lothlorien: We already have one with this name. However very interesting with a bow that gives an ability. Maybe add an ability to the lothlorien bow we already have, plus something to the numenor bow, to make them about even? Not having cubragol is hard, maybe give numenors a small 1d2M3 bonus to speed?
3: Crossbow of the Haradrim: Seems too weak to be really be very useful and I don't think there's a need for so many different kinds of shooters.
I don't like the Haradrim, our old Lothlorien was sort of weak compared to the Numenor bow. The buckland is a nice sling, still.

New amulets:
There are four new amulets. I don't like their names. Especially not Trickery/Weaponmastery.
1: Amulet of Devotion: Wis/chr bonus not the most useful, silly resists but could be useful for medium level characters.
2: Amulet of the Magi: Our Magi amulet works better.
3: Amulet of Trickery: up to 3 extra dex, stealth, searching, infra and speed, PLUS res poison and nexus. This amulet is a joke and outdoes all the artifact amulets. If our amulet of speed gets an update (1d5 or 1d6) this would fit in better.
4: Amulet of Weaponmastery: Hit/dam bonus, str bonus, res fear, disen and life draining, also sust str and con.
All those four amulets are quite powerful. That said, I don't like either. I prefer our magi amulet. The Trickery amulet is overpowered.
-- Mangband Project Team Member

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by schroeder » Sun 30.08.2009, 19:13

So here are my thoughts on all of these items

Boots:
The elvenkind boots are mostly useless. The fact that they have a lower max speed, and the fact that stealth is tougher to utilize in mangband make them rarely usable.
Stability boots and me have an awkward relationship. I hate them cus they are dumb, but, at the same time, I love them cus i have nothing else to put on my feet in midgame! However, at the same time, I know people who swear by them, and have a great fear of nexus (this is mostly in ironman though). Get their opinions on these boots first, but personally, i'd love to see some replacement there.

Gloves:
Thevery gloves are close to useless. They are too rare, and they give stuff most people in mangband don't have a reason to care about. Only nice if you truly *need* the dex, and your lucky enough to fine one with max dex.
I love Combat Gloves. They make my day soooooo much...well... In truth, they are only good when i'm getting to the point in the endgame when i have all my other resists, and i need extra str/con, and damage. IMO, they would be too pimp if you made it 1d4. Perhapse just 1d3 though, or making it 1d2 for strength con AND dex. I'd be kinda sad if they were removed, but i'd understand if they were replaced with something just as nice.

Crowns:
Night and day is truely awesome for one reason, and one reason only. It gives extra light radius. Your a little joe schmo running around with your little brass lantern, looking at all the cool, powerful people with lotsa light... Then, you get lucky. You find a crown of night and day. You feel SO pimp with it on, that it DOESN'T even matter that they could kill you just by looking at you. You are the pimp, and you have that extra light. Hell yeah.
Serenity is my favorite midgame item. Hands-down. Its relatively cheap to get, and it gets you some *key* resists. Its often a rather tough choice, choosing between either a +3 might, or a serenity crown. Thats how much I like it.
Lordly crowns are pimp. Plain and simple. However, a way to make them MORE pimp, would be to add some light radius to them!!! YEAAAAAAYAH! Then you can get rid of that useless night and day. Light and dark? Who uses those? Sure casters, but its easier and better for them to just resist blind, and later in the game, with heavy dark/light breathers, your not gonna wear a night/day crown. You gonna need something else there.

Shields:
Elvenkind shields are an early-midgame dream. Very few people have the cash for that shiny avari shield. And if they did, they'd be smart to spend it elsewhere. IMO, keep elven shields. The simple fact that you can get an orcish shield of elvenkind makes it funny enough to keep.
Preservation=fun, but not endgame usually. Very interesting, fun item to have in the mix.

Cloaks:
Protection is pretty wimpy. Find something to replace it. You can already get shard resist on cloak slot from an amen, so you shouldn't worry too much about it.
Magi cloaks are awesome. Any time you have a set of items which can be stacked for great justice, it is worthwile to keep them in (Kolla of the magi or orcish shield of the avari...stuff like that)

Armor:
Dwarven: Love it. Enough said.

Digger of Earthquakes:
You feel frikin awesome when you wield one of these. Nubnub shall testify to this. The only problem is that you will never create an earthquake with one, because you need to have base damage of 50 from the dice (iirc) in order to earthquake. IMO this is a good thing, cus earthquakes fu*k things up, but perhapse this should be dealt with. Something that i think should stay the same with them, even though its a bug, is the strength bonus being able to hit the "obscene" number of 9. This just makes them epic and awesome. Don't "fix" the bug!

Shooters:
Buckland slings are a fun little addition. One thing though...In angband, the + on the sling is now to Dex, Might, AND shots! So a sling of buckland(x4) (+18,+18)(+2) is considered a godly morgoth slaying weapon on the angband forums now. IMO don't add that extra little cheese. Its just dumb.
Loth bows...I love them. Specificly, esp loth bows. If you ever find one of these, you feel like the most pimp person on the server. And thorbear has two of them. MAN. HE is a PIMP! I don't know the difference between 'your' loth bows and 'their' loth bows, but so long as you don't remove esp loth bows, i'm happy ;)
Haradrim is crap. Its just a heavy crossbow of extra shots with higher max damage, and less weight. I'd toss it.

(i'm getting exausted from this, so i'm gonna make this last one fast)
Amulets:
Devotion is mediocre imo. An item with is only rarely usefull, if you don't have anything better to put on.
Magi=pimp. Old magi when resist was random was (from what i heard) just too good.
Trickery= just way too insanely strong. Make it 1d3, and make speed amulets better to balance. Thats my suggestion.
Weaponmastery is usually useless. Don't know what to do with it. I usually use it cus i need resist disenchant.
Anything worth being done, is worth being overdone.
My Mangband videos; http://www.youtube.com/user/Schroederband

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by Thorbear » Sun 30.08.2009, 23:07

My thoughts:
I haven't really made such specific thoughts about each and every item, but in my opinion, variety is good, more than good, it's magic!
I do, however, agree that a lot of the new items have non-tolkien-ish names, so if those are replaced, by almost equally good items, it'd be positive.

Mainly, I think that for every item that is removed, at least one should be added. I love it when you can make 2 chars with same race/class, and still have totally different item-setup for them.

Again: variety is magic!
I am Thorbear...

serina
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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by serina » Mon 07.09.2009, 15:13

Wow huge great post :)

I will only comment on the areas where I disagree with your comments or have additional ideas, Warrior:

Boots - we need an alternative to boots of speed... Everyone wear these (I would definately consider wearing CON-boots, like "Thror")

Combat gloves - I'm biased. They compete with istari - gloves, but if they were made into some "orchish" gloves that were a rare standard item like orchish shields (aggravation would be fun on both, actually :)). That'd be awesome. (and then there'd be a difference between "orchish" shield of elvenkind and the regular shield of "avari") - orchish gloves of the istari... YUMMY! (but not more powerful than the orchish avari or kolla of magi...)

Crowns of Night/day - I love em. Most of my characters wear these if I find em. They are competing with crowns of serenity. And usually night/day wins because there are more items for sale with res conf-high resist than res blind, hehe.

Shield of elvenkind - these are a mid-game item. Avari shields are late-game item.

Dwarven armours - WE NEED THEM! (the lower con class/race combos have no chance at maxing without it).

The bows - we need speed :) - haradrim sucks - now a haradrim heavy x-bow. That'd be useful :)

Amulets - Dwarven necklace has no competition or alternatives (HT warriors don't need con-amulets, but kobold mages do. Even priests to some extend...)
- Devotion amulets should be tweaked to be remotely useful (to this date amulet of wis +5 or +6 are WAY more powerful to the WIS casters) (I love bonus to con... "Devotion" could indicate a devotion towards strengthening both body as well as a divine power (I'm unsure if Tolkien have priestly powers at all - I'm not that into the Tolkien lore that much anymore)

ZAL

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by Ace » Fri 11.09.2009, 01:09

Hi

In my opinion there should be different paths that can lead to victory ;) And so the more item variety the better. If the item is totally useless, lets adapt it a bit so it gets useful. Imho it would be sad to have less items available. So I am with Thorbear here as well.

I think I posted it elsewhere in the forum already what "new" items i would favor - but not sure if they are in the "spirit" of the Angband world.

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by PowerWyrm » Fri 11.09.2009, 11:39

Gloves of combat: completely useless... 1 or 2 points of CON for aggravation is totally pointless unless you are already wearing the One Ring. For my variant, I removed the aggravation, it makes the item more useful (compared to gloves of power with more +STR but no +CON). Maybe do the same in MAng?

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by Emulord » Fri 11.09.2009, 16:41

I agree with PowerWyrm. Gloves of Combat doesnt imply aggravation, and this way we gain another useful item.

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by serina » Fri 11.09.2009, 17:46

Well...

A warrior with Zarcuthra or a great weapons of Fury can be incredibly fun to play and they level at an extreme rate unlike any other character. The combat gloves help you survive in this case, and the game is all about fun :) Will this warrior be able to win? Only with luck, but then again that's almost how it is with every character, but the aggravation adds a "fun" element at least in the Mid-Game. If you wear it later, it might mean you die horribly, but so can any sort of bad luck.

I think combat gloves are incredible, but usually not more incredible than istaris, but certainly just as rare or rarer...

*edit: Adding a random high resist or a fixed high resist would make combat gloves able to compete

ZAL

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by PowerWyrm » Mon 14.09.2009, 11:18

Gloves of combat are simply pointless because they don't add anything compared to Gloves of power except the +CON (and only +1 or +2). Even without the aggravation, they would be only a mild substitute. On the other hand, with a random high resist...
What I don't understand is why they added those in vanilla Angband in the first place. You're almost guaranteed to get Cambeleg before you find a pair... and they're a joke compared to the artifact. Someone simply thought that it would add flavor to give something that is called "of Combat" the aggravation... why not give activation for berserk rage instead?

serina
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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by serina » Mon 14.09.2009, 14:37

CON-for a CON fan...

2 Weapon slot: Westernesse, *slay dragon* or artifact in that case you can get +5, but they don't count.
0 ranged
(12) rings - let's face it... You cannot wear con rings and kill some of the rougher uniques.
0 Amulet (3 with necklace of the dwarves, but that doesn't count...)
0 Lightsource (arts don't count)
2 Armour (dwarven)
2 Cloak (Kolla)
2 (+2) Shield (orchish or avari - but you can have both... NO! YOU WON'T FIND IT! - 1 in 2000 characters ever have)
3 Helm (Crown of Might)
2 Gloves (Combat - yeah this is the only pair that can grant additional CON for this slot)
0 Boots (Thror don't count)

And the grand total is: 13.

Elf mage needs +14 CON to get 18/200...
Telling me that you don't need to squeeze the lemon for every last drop in this case is blasphemy. My elf won due to finding Thror and Ingwe. And having +15 and +14 speed rings in addition (Orchish Avari I've never found - and know of only 2 or 3 that've been found ever).

Going up against Morgoth with less than 750 HP in realtime. I can't see that being doable.

The half-elven mage needs +13 CON, human mage needs +12 CON. That still includes all items listed above excluding artifacts...

So today there's no alternative to the gear I listed for a mage (unless you use artifacts or go with alot less speed). Giving mages 1 option less isn't really a viable solution in my eyes.

ZAL

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by PowerWyrm » Tue 15.09.2009, 11:54

The previous set of gear has a huge problem:
- westernesse, no high resist
- shooter, no high resist
- rings (speed), no high resist
- amulet, resist confusion, disenchantment or poison/nexus
- light source, no high resist
- dwarven, no high resist
- kolla (aman), 1 random high
- avari, 1 random high
- might, no high resist
- combat, no high resist
- boots (speed), no high resist
Except for Morgoth for which you almost only need 3 highs (conf, blind, nether), this won't make a character live long. Another problem for mage is that you still need to get extra +INT (not mentioning ESP... here you would need a lothlorien with ESP which you will probably find with 1 out of 1000 characters, or sacrifice another high resist for an amulet/cloak with ESP). High elf will need +4 to max, others +5 or more. The only open slot here for +INT is the amulet (Magi). In this case, you get res conf but with only 2 other slots available for high resists you're in big trouble, unless you want to dive at 6350ft without res sound or blind when stuff can KO you or permablind you in one round. Playing with very difficult race/class combo will force you to make compromises... with my half-troll mage, I had a *hard* time optimizing INT, CON, speed and high resists. But it's the point of such challenging games.
Here's a set of gear that I would use (should not be that hard to find):
- ESP weapon
- numenor
- ring of speed
- CON ring
- amulet of trickery
- balance DSM
- kolla
- avari shield
- crown of night and day
- istari gloves
- boots of speed
All high resists are covered if you can find nether/confusion on the avari/istari. Speed at +30 (perfect set) or at least +20 (average set). At least +3 INT and +10 CON. Kolla slot is open... aman for missing high resist, magi for +INT. If you're lucky to find ESP on a shooter or cloak, the weapon slot becomes open (westie for extra CON). If you find a power DSM, no need to worry about resists anymore and all slots can be used to pump up INT, CON and speed.

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by PowerWyrm » Tue 15.09.2009, 12:00

Of course, the set of gear with combat gloves would become acceptable with the gloves had an extra high. With 4 highs available, you could at least cover conf, blind, sound and chaos. Poison would be available through the resistance spell. Shards and nexus *may* be skipped (as well as light/dark). No res disenchant is more problematic if you care about AC. No res nether means that you need to avoid anything that can breathe nether or cast nether bolts/balls.

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by serina » Wed 16.09.2009, 18:58

We prefer different gear, we already knew that :) Your gear choice provides a maximum of +10 CON which provides an elven mage with 225 less HP than max. Which would equal 625 HP on average. You'll need luck and possibly zero lag in order to kill some of the later uniques with that amount.

However I don't see your argument about kicking gloves of combat off the item list just because you don't prefer them. Some others clearly do, and I argument my case by stating that these gloves is the only option to get con on gloves. And made viable points (in my eyes at least) to keep them as an item.

I agree that playing non-standard class/race combos should be a tough game. However "unwinnable" without farming for items for several 100's of hours (after artifacts have been found) isn't a good solution in my eyes. And we can clearly see, in general, that artifacts aren't released after they've been found. At least they aren't released for certain even after 6 months have passed.

But let's get back on track here and discuss the items, not gear-preferance. - I'm sorry for derailing even if to make my point.

I'm all for giving combat gloves a boost and calling them something else. I already gave a valid alternative, even if my alternative wasn't an Ego, but a regular item. Or adding a random high resist to them. A valid penalty is ok in my eyes or they'd be "standard/preferred" gear like so many other items are today. (although the fact that they don't have FA can be a penalty in itself)

ZAL

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by serina » Sun 04.10.2009, 00:23

Cloaks of lordly resistance could be given a chance to have an immunity against 1 of the lows. That'd make them more versatile for anything other than a swap for WAR/PRI/PAL.

ZAL

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Re: Thoughts on the new items in v1.0+

Post by serina » Sun 04.10.2009, 11:10

Amulets of the Magi... Can these grant +3 INT? All that I've seen so far are only +2 INT. Is this a bug or meant to be like this?

ZAL

-edit: I looked at Karis' recent death...

e) an Amulet of the Magi [+10] (+3)

So it must work, and I just have bad luck.

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