MAngband

-------------- Introduction to the Series

Having played several MMORPGs (Ragnarok Online, Final Fantasy XI) and studied the workings of several others such as Everquest, Lineage, WoW, Middle Earth Online, etc etc, I tend to want to think of this as a small-scale MMORPG. I read up on what players like and don't like on the forums, typically on Allakhazam.

Having said that, please understand that Crimson, the "vanilla" MAngband developer, has a substantially different viewpoint on this. He wants to keep the game true to its roots, which is quite admirable!

The vanilla game seems to be tailored to the serious MUD lover who just can't find one that moves fast enough, and if you haven't experienced a MUD I would invite you to try one or more of them just to get a taste of what's out there. Then come back and play lots of MAngband.

------------- Volume 1, Death.

MAngband has a stiff death penalty. You lose 50% of your EXP, which equates to roughly 3 levels no matter what. Since different races and classes require more EXP to advance, this can be much more of a setback for one player than another.

But wait, that's not all. There's another penalty. You turn into a ghost, which is extremely vulnerable, and teleport to a random location. In the current code base, there is mediocre at best safety checking. Countless deaths have happened because the game dumped a player's ghost in the same room as a pack of something nasty. This needs to be improved if this system is to be continued.

The final and sometimes most severe penalty is that you lose your items. If there is enough room on the floor, they will all fall on the floor. The system does give priority to more valuable items such as artifacts, high books, and enchanted equipment. Money is low priority, so if you're carrying five million gold and a bunch of torches and there is one square available, the game will drop the torches first and you lose your gold. Often the lesser items the game didn't pick first and are thus lost are worth more to the owner than the equipment - but there is no way to reliably detect which item is most useful to a player. Recent enhancements have eliminated the problem of key loss associated with death, so the shrewd player will have access to backup gear if he can't get his gear back.

Countless studies and trials by the industry superpowers have shown that a lower death penalty frustrates players less - after all, it's supposed to be a game you play for fun - and that games with stiff penalties tend to disappear from the market. You obviously want players to play your game for as long as possible and enjoy every minute of it, so it's only logical to lessen severe penalties that could cause you to lose months of hard work in an instant. Take for example FFXI. You drop to the floor and only lose 10% of your EXP towards your next level, even deleveling if necessary. That only takes a long time to get back because individual battles can last several minutes each. White mages can cast one of the Raise spells, which give you back some of your lost experience; you can also purchase a Instant Reraise scroll for yourself. Upon reraising by spell or item, you are in an extremely weak state for several minutes. Since you don't lose your items and definitely don't lose two to three levels, you don't get as upset about it. This is a good system. I know EQ and the other MMORPGs have lower penalties as well.

the death policy in mangband is far better than in vanilla
it may be a bit harsh
but i personally believe ffxi and others should have a more harsh penalty(i play though so i dont disagree with it when i die.lol)
perhaps mangband's penalty could be changed to -1 level every 12 levels bvefore death, this would be harsher for higher level players but more lenient on noobs the high levelers are supposed to be veteran and expert players so they should not be dying as often anyway
also, how would lowering death penalty be NOT specific to mangband?
i am almost sure that mang is alone in its current -50%xp ghost policy and this is better than death meaning a complete restart

I pretty much agree with what you said at the beginning of this topic, Berendol.  

Personally, biggest pain from death isn't monetary or experience loss..  those can be generally collected with some effort.. it's losing something that was very cool, very rare or valuable, or just totally unique.. and never being able to get it back.  As you said, it' s hard to identify exactly what these items are.  :/

One problem I see with making death less painful is that.. well, death is the ultimate loss that makes hard diving to 2800 to hunt Great Wyrms just not worth it.   There are absolutely massive rewards if you are willing to be suicidal..

Players like Jube or Xander can go take the risks and live.. but the rest of us fear the consequences of living on the wild side.  

So, I suppose my point is..  

It'd be nice to have a way to reduce the pain of death, but how to make risky yet profitable diving.. still risky enough the profits don't outweight the costs?

Plus, fighting big nasty stuff doesn't have the excitement, adrenaline, or fear without the nasty butterfly in your stomach that says you're gonna have big problems if you don't prevail..

The death penalty is such a touchy issue. While the lazy greedy side of me of course loves the idea of a less painful penalty (free rings of speed on death!), I still have to admit that permanence, or something near to it, makes games exciting.

The one thing that I'll allow myself to comment on without feeling like I'm a whinging wuss is about those times that I have died, dropped loot, and not had a player around to save me. These scenarios hurt because of how quickly a level may reset on me, taking me gear with it.

Once, when there was a stretch of time when very very few people where playing, it took three days for a high enough level person to save me to show up. Needless to say, my loot was long since gone on the level I staticed.

I've heard peoples comments on this, and am suprised how quickly a level resets.

Of all things that are the most unpleasant about death, I'd say have a staticed level reset with your gear is the one thing that really hits me hard.  Perhaps, at the very minimum, we could consider differentiating between a static from save and a static from death - padding the death static with some extra time.

fink

i think the death penalty is fine the way it is....with an exception.  its like socialism, it works if everyone is nice to each other and there are no jerks around willing to step all over people to get to the top.  thats why when i'm online i do my best to aleviate the pain and suffering of the unfortunite.  and i think we all agree, when a high player is online thats a decent person, dieing isn't so bad.  the only thing that needs fixing is the items falling, i think that items should be able to stack on the floor.  that would settle the only qualm i have about the deaths.

if jerks are online that kill your ghost and steal your gear (or just one of them), then the death penalty is too much.

Are you calling me a socialist?  ;D

We could consider the idea of a player not dropping a spam of loot, but instead a Quake-style backpack.

It could work like this:

You die, and you drop your backpack, which is the combination of all your loot, on the ground. The backpack size could be tweaked for balance (your backpack will only be the stuff you were wearing, or whatever). When you return as the living to your back pack, you pick it up.

The next time you drop the pack, it will autospew all over the place, like normal. So, you return to town or somewhere safe and open, and drop n' spew.

-fin