Idea: New "race"

[Berendol]

So, I was inspired by a review of the ghost diving policy. I have this idea for a new "race" selection.

I'd like to see the ability to start as a ghost - in other words, to start dead - but this ghost would be slightly different, because you can't resurrect, and you can float down through the floor.

We could replace something that doesn't get used much if it's a matter of compatibility restrictions.

What do you guys think?

[Murdin]

Sounds good to me. Would they have access to Undead powers constantly? Could be interesting. They'd still require XP to fuel them. I'd also recommend immunity to fear and possibly sleep.

Replace humans if it comes down to it. Nobody plays them, there's no reason to.

[Avenger]

I always used to like ghost diving, and usually I created a character specifically to do it rather then diving my normal character when he died, so I think this would be a good idea, if for nothing more then taking a little break from the normal game. As for Murdin's suggestion, I have seen enough people playing humans and I son't think it would necessarily be a good idea to replace them. However, I remember when I first started playing Mangband, we had a race called 'Snotling'. I don't think it was any different then human, maybe just an idea that was never developed, but nonetheless it was there, so adding a new race would probably not create any serious problems.

[Warrior]

Ghost diving used to be one of the coolest things you could do in MAngband. I remember diving ghosts down to the bottom, getting back up to town, resurrecting, equipping them with a few basic items and once or twice also Beruthiel for ESP. I found some very cool items that way.

Once I found a GCV at 4k that way and we went down to clear it out, (lol). It was myself, Gorth, Conn, maybe Seth and I'm not sure but I think also either/or Crimson/Alex Dingle was there too. Anyway, I have the screenshots on the other computer. It was crazy, I think I was the highest level maybe lvl 38 or something, most uf us had max depth like 1500.

So ghosts would be cool, indeed  8)

I guess the biggest question here is if ghosts should be able to pick up stuff and use it?

If not they'd need immunity to all stat drains and exp drains and such, if not they'd not be very playable at all.

Maybe they should be able to pick up stuff but not equip things? This way they could use potions and scrolls and such and be kinda playable.

But I guess it'd be best if they'd just be normal ghosts, unable to pick up things, but able to drift up and down.

But shouldn't ghosts be a class? Or just a new race without a class option maybe? Anyway it'd make no sense to be a ghost ranger since you couldn't use any ranger abilities.

Anyway.
I'd say go for plain ghosts as we have today, just enable >.

- Warrior

[Berendol]

Idea for a name: Wraith

We could make them able to use certain items, but they would have to have intrinsic abilities and strengths to make up for their lack in other areas.

Some items they could not use: Potions and food are out (no physical body thus allowing no containment and requiring no nourishment).

We could give them a small set of powers that would be useful, and that could vary by class. Although, maybe we could let them pick up anything under a certain weight, which could increase with level? That way they could use scrolls.

Possible strengths:
* High defense, resistances, and evasion, because you have to actually hit them to do damage
* Stats increase with level

They would certainly require a large amount of EXP - perhaps more than 400% - to advance. Come on, it's pretty much made for a risky cruise through the dungeon, so... combat, leveling and even winning shouldn't even be part of the game for ghosts.

[MunkYBoY]

sounds fun

[Warrior]

Since it doesn't really make sense that ghosts can pick up anything, maybe it's time to look at the old idea of letting the player use objects on the ground?

But anyway, Like Berendol I also thought about letting them pick up (and use/equip) very light objects.

Say they aren't able to pick up anything until they are level 10 and then only 1 lbs max and then increase that to 2 lbs at lvl 20, 3 at lvl 30, 4 at lvl 40 and 5 at lvl 50?

I think this would make wraiths quite fun to play but possibly too easy, depending on their powers.

However, what kind of stats should this race have?

If we start building a totally new race for them there sure is a lot of stuff to be considered and balanced.

They would've had a life before death, (obviously) so they should have somewhat higher stat bonuses than the other races.

But since their physical body is gone it'd take a lot of thought and careful testing to figure out how it should be balanced.

Maybe they should just be given say 2x High Elves stat bonuses and their abilities based on this? High Elves can play Warriors and Mages and Priests all quite easily and since the exp penalty is high anyway I think you should get some value for that.

But generally they'd probably have some sort of and possibly a very high intelligence and wisdom, given their knowledge of life after death :p  (besides knowing you shouldn't mess with greater titans).

They should be one of the three main classes, Warrior, Mage or Priest.

I'd say they'd need either 400% to advance but then no class modifier on top of that, or maybe 300% to advance and then up to 400% based on what class you'd pick. (Depending on if the class powers can be balanced well or not).

Their history, via the character screen would have to show what they used to be and how they died and maybe some other information?

If ghosts are _not_ going to be able to equip things I think they should get certain bonuses based on level.

Maybe they, like rogues should get speed bonuses, maybe having base 10 and then get a speed bonus at certain levels?

An extra 5 speed every 10 levels?
At level 1-9= +10
At level 10= +15
at level 20= +20,
at level 30= +25
at level 40= +30
and at level 50= +35.

And maybe an AC bonus?

Not immediately but as they gained knowledge of being undead and fighting as undead?

An extra 25 AC every 5 levels from LVL 15?

At level 15= 25
At level 20= 50
At level 25= 75
At level 30= 100
At level 35= 125
At level 40= 150
At level 45= 175
At level 50= 200

At 400% exp penalty it'd take, roughly *mumble mumble* a billion exp to get to level 50 anyway.

I guess the most important thing is what kinda attacks they'd get and thats one long thread in itself.

About their defenses though: sustain all stats, 100% hold life, maybe just give them perfect saving throw and some intrinsic highs, like blindness and confusion. Since they have no body maybe they should actually be immune to all breath attacks?
This however makes it too easy to gain exp since most hounds don't bite and claw hard enough to kill a decent level ghost with extra speed and/or AC (especially when you can just retreat into the walls). So again, lots of things has to be considered, unless we decide to just create a ghost race and let them be like normal player ghosts with no extras besides maybe some more undead powers, specific for each class.

It's an interesting idea.

[Avenger]

Hmm... this sounds suspiciously like PosBand. I'll take a look at the code sometime and see if I can offer any suggestions on this topic, but so far this looks pretty good, and I like most of Warrior's ideas. Of course the most important thing at this time is Crimson's ideas about this, as he would be responsible for implementing it(unless Berendol wants to set up another server with his variant again  ;D), and so far he hasn't posted on this topic. Crimson, what do you think?

[sanjuro]

What about not having a huge XP factor but spending XP to cast spells like normal ghosts?  And maybe they can learn new spells from other magic sources with varying failure rates... maybe even from potions so they can have stat boosts but at a huge failure rate that costs XP to cast.

Just throwing out ideas... I do see a couple of problems with that.  First the UI for spell casting might be too custom and involve too much work.  Second, if bettering your character is at the expense of XP then I can see balancing becoming very tricky.  But then again normal characters better themselves by gaining experience levels... how about not even having levels but everything you normally improve through leveling will ultimately be available through spending XP.

And from a design point of view, the farther something is from the way things already are the more things tend toward specialization instead of generalization.  For example, breath weapons are just implemented as ball spells, or very nearly (I haven't looked at the code in a long time).  If there were existing mechanism that can be used or modified be used (without breaking any existing responsibilities) to implement most of the ghost features that would be good.

BTW, howdy everyone  I've been away for a while... DDO and GRAW have been occupying a lot of my gaming time... and Oblivion will as well.  But Angband is a way of life so I'll be back!

[Murdin]

At the very least I think Wraiths should be able to use weapons, maybe also something lightweight like a cloak or robes. Or we could just let them equip whatever they want and have very low tolerance for weight (In other words, a full set of gear would be a crippling amount of weight for the average Wraith). I agree on the no potions thing, though maybe not necessarily on scrolls since they're lightweight and don't necessarily affect the body so much as the energies of the body, in my opinion. Staves and rods are kinda iffy.

If you want a really nasty penalty don't allow rings or amulets. With that gone, there goes the best option for speed and the most versatile resist slot.

Basically, they should be playable, just severely limited due to their inherent advantages.

If they're allowed the Undead power menu then that in itself can result in a good amount of XP penalty if used, though < and > can easily take the place of teleportation or other evasive tactics, if the player feels like gambling... Nonetheless, they should definately have a bare minimum of 200-250% xp penalty, though I'd favor something around 300-350%.

I definately like the inherent speed bonus idea that Warrior put up (like with the Rogue), though I'm not sure what I think about the inherent AC gains.

I'm still in favor of res fear and sleep, though hold life (maybe Nether too?) is also a good idea, now that I think about it. No sense in making the experience downright -brutal-.

As far as immunity to breath weapons, I don't see why ghosts wouldn't be hit by them, really, since they're (the weapons) comprised of magical energy (in theory o_O).

Finally, I'm of the opinion that their primary stats would be Int, Wis, Dex, and -maybe- Con in that order. Str would be average and Cha would have a negative.

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

I think we may be jumping the gun a bit.  These are all very well thought-out ideas, with great details...but I think it's a bit unneeded.

One thing to think about...take all these abilities...and *guarantee* that I'll make one to pkill with.

That being said...are they still so appealing?

Just a thought is all.  It's good to assume the absolute worst, and work up from there...makes for trying to "fix" neat ways that people stretch the meaning of the code.

[Warrior]

The Wraith would be the perfect pk'ing class, easy to locate the prey via </>, complete maneuverability from walking through walls and as you become high level you get great speed and AC.

However it's easy to write down rules, "Wraiths aren't allowed to pk"

[Berendol]

The thought had occurred to me, yes, but since they're already ghosts... one kill, and they're dead. Would you really want to gamble?

I'll assume yes, so I would put in the stipulation that they cannot see other players unless partying, being a part of the ghostly realm as all Morgoth's enslaved monsters would be, nor can they directly attack another player since that would require seeing them.

That would also have the side effect of not being able to use stores.

So then we'd need them to have some kind of permanent light, and not require much sustenance.

[sanjuro]

Well, I vote to turn off player killing altogether then it's no longer an issue.  I'd much rather play a cooperative game than a competative one, but that's just me.

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

[quote author=Berendol link=board=thinktank;num=1142112558;start=0#12 date=03/17/06 at 10:10:02]The thought had occurred to me, yes, but since they're already ghosts... one kill, and they're dead. Would you really want to gamble?
[/quote]

Actually, yes.  If you think about it, pkilling is kinda a gamble right now.  There's nothing to stop someone from making a new character, getting big, and wokking someone...so, when I kill someone, I have to be *fairly* sure that I'll be able to KEEP killing them (even once they hit level 50).  Otherwise, it'd just be me painting a really big target on my chest.

My $.02, anyway.