B) Restricted PK
I see it similar to Crimson and also to Warrior. Murder is a fact of life. So are consequences. I think that while no PKilling in town and no pkilling ghosts are good rules, so are consequences for breaking the rules. I don't mind the aspect of murder for gear in the game, but I think there's no way to restrict someone's reasoning. Certainly, a lvl 45 character would have little use of a lvl 25 character's gear, but even if they are close in lvl, who's to say they had a legitimate reason? You would have to take the pkiller's word for it, and I don't think that's a good way to operate. If there where a way to logisticly do that, I would say "yeah, leave it open", but there's too much room for deception to make this operable. I, like Warrior, would likely operate characters on 2 servers, which, by the way, if someone wants to help me with the code, I would be more than happy to host a non-pvp game.
PK Vote
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Branmuffin
- Clear Yeek
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed 15.02.2006, 11:10
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: PK Vote
A: No PK
I this the same that Zaphod/Warrior
Two servers,
- Free/Restrictive PK server
- No PK server
The same computer can run both servers in differents ports.
I this the same that Zaphod/Warrior
Two servers,
- Free/Restrictive PK server
- No PK server
The same computer can run both servers in differents ports.
-*-*-*- Argentinian team working for mangband -*-*-*-
We haven't access to mangband, but we are working for it...
-*-*-*- Argentinian team working for mangband -*-*-*-
We haven't access to mangband, but we are working for it...
-*-*-*- Argentinian team working for mangband -*-*-*-
Re: PK Vote
B. Restricted PK.
I've always thought that getting shafted (litterally shot to death) while in a store was the lamest of the lame ways to die in Mangband.
That being said I feel that anything outside of town should be free reign.
However I'm open to other suggestions to make the game more friendly to new players.
Maybe in the interests of promoting new players restrict pkilling in the first 1000' to +/- 5 player levels?
I've always thought that getting shafted (litterally shot to death) while in a store was the lamest of the lame ways to die in Mangband.
That being said I feel that anything outside of town should be free reign.
However I'm open to other suggestions to make the game more friendly to new players.
Maybe in the interests of promoting new players restrict pkilling in the first 1000' to +/- 5 player levels?
King of the Hill Baby!
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Branmuffin
- Clear Yeek
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed 15.02.2006, 11:10
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: PK Vote
I had another thought..also no killing in town or surrounding wilderness...such as the ones that have houses. I like the premise of no pkilling for the 1st 1000 ft, but I think that might keep people from venturing down.
You aren't allowed to drop things until you have a certain amount of XP, and have to attain a certain level to learn spells, use items and such, how about you aren't allowed to pkill untill you get a certain amount of XP and limit it to a +\- amount of your charlvl?....low level characters could beat up the same and high level chars couldn't touch less experienced people. This would also keep people from creating new characters to kill for their gear when they themselves are new (character farming).
Equal risk for equal rewards.
I see it like this...
you are under lvl 5...you can't pkill.
you are lvl 5-10.....you can pkill anyone +/- 1 level of you.
you are lvl 10-20...you can pkill anyone +/- 2 levels of you.
you are lvl 20-30...you can pkill anyone +/- 3 levels of you.
you are lvl 30-40...you can pkill anyone +/- 4 levels of you.
you are lvl 40-50...you can pkill anyone +/- 5 levels of you.
You can't pkill in town or any wilderness map that has houses.
You can't pkill a ghost. I would even restrict it to where the only interaction you can have with a ghost is resurrecting them. Ghosts, while they have undead powers and can supposedly fight with critters, can't go down stairs and explore the dungeon further, and so are basically non-characters for that time. They carry nothing to be killed for and give no experience, so they should not be of any interest for pkilling purposes.
You might consider what the /hostile flag on the character's icon and name in the player list. I think some warning to people when they are being targetted would be appreciated as well. Maybe color them in the player list a certain way, put a distictive warning message in the chat window stating something such as "Pkiller-person has expressed hostility towards you" and possibly change the map icon of the character who is hostile to a certain color, maybe flashing like a multi-hued. I know I get confused in town about who is who....(so many red @ symbols....)
You aren't allowed to drop things until you have a certain amount of XP, and have to attain a certain level to learn spells, use items and such, how about you aren't allowed to pkill untill you get a certain amount of XP and limit it to a +\- amount of your charlvl?....low level characters could beat up the same and high level chars couldn't touch less experienced people. This would also keep people from creating new characters to kill for their gear when they themselves are new (character farming).
Equal risk for equal rewards.
I see it like this...
you are under lvl 5...you can't pkill.
you are lvl 5-10.....you can pkill anyone +/- 1 level of you.
you are lvl 10-20...you can pkill anyone +/- 2 levels of you.
you are lvl 20-30...you can pkill anyone +/- 3 levels of you.
you are lvl 30-40...you can pkill anyone +/- 4 levels of you.
you are lvl 40-50...you can pkill anyone +/- 5 levels of you.
You can't pkill in town or any wilderness map that has houses.
You can't pkill a ghost. I would even restrict it to where the only interaction you can have with a ghost is resurrecting them. Ghosts, while they have undead powers and can supposedly fight with critters, can't go down stairs and explore the dungeon further, and so are basically non-characters for that time. They carry nothing to be killed for and give no experience, so they should not be of any interest for pkilling purposes.
You might consider what the /hostile flag on the character's icon and name in the player list. I think some warning to people when they are being targetted would be appreciated as well. Maybe color them in the player list a certain way, put a distictive warning message in the chat window stating something such as "Pkiller-person has expressed hostility towards you" and possibly change the map icon of the character who is hostile to a certain color, maybe flashing like a multi-hued. I know I get confused in town about who is who....(so many red @ symbols....)
Re: PK Vote
I addhere to Branmuffin option
otherwise NO PK
A very restrictive PK or no PK at all.
otherwise NO PK
A very restrictive PK or no PK at all.
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Avenger
- Skeleton 2-Headed Troll
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Re: PK Vote
I agree with Narchan's opinion on restricted pk, but I would also advocate a series of servers with different pk limits. For example a new player friendly server with no pking allowed, a limited pk server, with safe town and ghosts, a free pk server, like mangband.org is now, and a pk encouraged server such as the one Bigjuan and Angus started a while ago, and(I believe) plan to start again. If possible, these servers would all use the same save files, so a player could start on the no pk server to gain experience, then move on as they saw fit, without having to start a completely new character. This would also remove the problem of people whining after getting killed on the pk friendly servers since it will be their choice to go there, and since the people who get pked and the people who pk will most likely be on different servers. I would also recomend that deaths on the pk encouraged server would not be recorded, or at least those deaths which resulted from pking. This would allow two players to log on to that server and have a friendly duel without risk, as well as to test out various equipment sets in different situations.
Re: PK Vote
The problem with completely free pk servers is implementation. You'd have to tweak a LOT of things in addition to melee. Spell effects, ranged attacks, stealing via J which causes auto-retaliation if it fails, then there's stuff like stealing during trades, do you expect to have an admin play arbiter all of the time if someone either doesn't pay up or someone else comes along and grabs your stuff? What about someone managing to slip into your house while your door is open (which has happened to me and which I've done to others). Then you get into the realy sneaky stages.. what happens if someone comes along and polymorphs the fruitfly you're fighting into an AMHD? What if they Clone the monster you're fighting (which hastes it and makes another one that's also hasted!) What about summon scrolls/staves? Scrolls of trap creation (which can create potentially deadly situations). Haste monster, aggravate monster etc. There are a LOT of potential abuses that most of you simply don't think about and an incredible amount of work necessary to change them.
That's not going to happen unless the server admin has a lot more time than Crimson does.
Which gets back to the simple point of this. If you guys don't like the way Mangband.org is set up, build your own server instance! It's not difficult, I think it took me about 5 hours of tweaking things to get one set up to my own satisfaction (including the linux install). Then you can lay the smackdown on whomever breaks YOUR rules and you can attempt to change the code necessary at your own leisure.
Expecting Crimson to implement all of these changes AND host multiple servers for a free game is pretty rediculous.
This is his HOBBY. If you don't like things download the code and tweak to your heart's content.
That's not going to happen unless the server admin has a lot more time than Crimson does.
Which gets back to the simple point of this. If you guys don't like the way Mangband.org is set up, build your own server instance! It's not difficult, I think it took me about 5 hours of tweaking things to get one set up to my own satisfaction (including the linux install). Then you can lay the smackdown on whomever breaks YOUR rules and you can attempt to change the code necessary at your own leisure.
Expecting Crimson to implement all of these changes AND host multiple servers for a free game is pretty rediculous.
This is his HOBBY. If you don't like things download the code and tweak to your heart's content.
King of the Hill Baby!
Re: PK Vote
Why don't we let crimson, decide that , he is the programmer, and father of the server and game.
If he don't want to do that, is allrigth, maybe there are a lot of people that will want to play in other server, when a good one presents.
There are not so many diferent people playing regaulary, let's say 15 , 20 , so the change is not so dificult .
After that crimson , will decide to change the server and rebuild the comunity, or simple leave mangband.org server for Ice, angus and crimson to play alone.
As a game and site administrator, if the 70% of the people that play here don't like PK rule is a choice that must make Crimson. Don;t you think. Let's him speak.
BTW if you do some of that techiques to kill someone.. is OK.. accidents happend. But is more fair to figth a pack of agravated Vibration hound than Ice or Angus with all his Gear.
And after all.. I like this comunity that's is why i still post , there some excelent people here, that known respect in the daily trait, help. If Continue playis is cos of them.
If the server changes help build a comunity and make it strong and we can make friend there.. So this is more important than the whole game.
If he don't want to do that, is allrigth, maybe there are a lot of people that will want to play in other server, when a good one presents.
There are not so many diferent people playing regaulary, let's say 15 , 20 , so the change is not so dificult .
After that crimson , will decide to change the server and rebuild the comunity, or simple leave mangband.org server for Ice, angus and crimson to play alone.
As a game and site administrator, if the 70% of the people that play here don't like PK rule is a choice that must make Crimson. Don;t you think. Let's him speak.
BTW if you do some of that techiques to kill someone.. is OK.. accidents happend. But is more fair to figth a pack of agravated Vibration hound than Ice or Angus with all his Gear.
And after all.. I like this comunity that's is why i still post , there some excelent people here, that known respect in the daily trait, help. If Continue playis is cos of them.
If the server changes help build a comunity and make it strong and we can make friend there.. So this is more important than the whole game.
Re: PK Vote
Uhm Crimson has already voted and explained that there are a lot of changes necessary to do what is being requested.
I was re-iterating what he stated with more information. Crimson has always been pk tolerant if not pro pk and I hardly think that your regurgitated comments are going to change anything. This has all been done before.
Mostly people continue to go 'we don't like it' but aren't willing to put any work into helping change things.
What I was doing was posting some of the problem areas so that you (and everyone else) has at least an idea of what is involved.
Threatening to leave realy is your only card, and you (the argentinian crew) have played that already. It's not changing the status quo. If you choose to leave then leave. Mangband.org will continue to be the most populous of the public servers for a variety of reasons.
First and foremost it's stable. It has an administrator who is while not consistantly available, quite reliable when he is around. And lastly we generally work well together. Even Ice doesn't go out of his way to kill old-timers. Most of what he does has a purpose.
First and foremost it entertains him. But it's not just that. He tends to prey on newer characters not because he can't kill old-timers, far from it. He's teaching you to be paranoid. That may sound odd at first glance but think about it. When you're paranoid in the dungeon your reaction is a bit faster, you start to strategize better, you get more on edge. In short you become a better player because you have to if you want to survive. It's not simply a matter of choosing where to play anymore.
The majority of the mangband community, given the choice only play where they feel 'safe'. Tossing in players like myself and Ice leave no-where 'safe' and force you to either improve or die.
I was re-iterating what he stated with more information. Crimson has always been pk tolerant if not pro pk and I hardly think that your regurgitated comments are going to change anything. This has all been done before.
Mostly people continue to go 'we don't like it' but aren't willing to put any work into helping change things.
What I was doing was posting some of the problem areas so that you (and everyone else) has at least an idea of what is involved.
Threatening to leave realy is your only card, and you (the argentinian crew) have played that already. It's not changing the status quo. If you choose to leave then leave. Mangband.org will continue to be the most populous of the public servers for a variety of reasons.
First and foremost it's stable. It has an administrator who is while not consistantly available, quite reliable when he is around. And lastly we generally work well together. Even Ice doesn't go out of his way to kill old-timers. Most of what he does has a purpose.
First and foremost it entertains him. But it's not just that. He tends to prey on newer characters not because he can't kill old-timers, far from it. He's teaching you to be paranoid. That may sound odd at first glance but think about it. When you're paranoid in the dungeon your reaction is a bit faster, you start to strategize better, you get more on edge. In short you become a better player because you have to if you want to survive. It's not simply a matter of choosing where to play anymore.
The majority of the mangband community, given the choice only play where they feel 'safe'. Tossing in players like myself and Ice leave no-where 'safe' and force you to either improve or die.
King of the Hill Baby!
Re: PK Vote
Well, a quick count gives us these results:
Out of a total 12 votes
I think however if it was either/or most of the B voters would go for A.
Anyway, Berendols solution seems to me a good one, no PVP in town, no ghost kills anywhere and notifications about hostile status.
As Angus says, implementation of those things might be rather complex and time demanding. Crimson says that players will find ways around restrictions. Both are right and this is something we might just have to live with, I don't think lots of effort should be put into this yet until we see how things go. At least it's not something that should (or could) be forced onto the maintainer.
I don't think there's an absolute need to implement anything discussed in this or the other pk'ing threads, all that _has_ to be done is to write it down and add it to the server rules. No town pk, no pk in the wilderness where there's houses and no ghost killing.
Branmuffin suggests putting level restrictions on the pk'ers, making dungeon pk'ing allowed within +/- 5 levels of your own would be relatively fair.
People will still get pk'd but it might seem slightly less offensive if it's by someone close to your own level.
- Warrior
Out of a total 12 votes
- A: No PK = 2
- B: Restricted PK = 9
- C: Free PK = 1
I think however if it was either/or most of the B voters would go for A.
Anyway, Berendols solution seems to me a good one, no PVP in town, no ghost kills anywhere and notifications about hostile status.
As Angus says, implementation of those things might be rather complex and time demanding. Crimson says that players will find ways around restrictions. Both are right and this is something we might just have to live with, I don't think lots of effort should be put into this yet until we see how things go. At least it's not something that should (or could) be forced onto the maintainer.
I don't think there's an absolute need to implement anything discussed in this or the other pk'ing threads, all that _has_ to be done is to write it down and add it to the server rules. No town pk, no pk in the wilderness where there's houses and no ghost killing.
Branmuffin suggests putting level restrictions on the pk'ers, making dungeon pk'ing allowed within +/- 5 levels of your own would be relatively fair.
People will still get pk'd but it might seem slightly less offensive if it's by someone close to your own level.
- Warrior
-- Mangband Project Team Member
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Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
- Iridescent Beetle
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Sun 27.10.2002, 21:16
- Location: Eugene, OR
- Contact:
Re: PK Vote
[quote author=Domino link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=15#16 date=02/27/06 at 14:30:10] Even Ice doesn't go out of his way to kill old-timers. Most of what he does has a purpose.
First and foremost it entertains him. But it's not just that. He tends to prey on newer characters not because he can't kill old-timers, far from it. He's teaching you to be paranoid. That may sound odd at first glance but think about it. When you're paranoid in the dungeon your reaction is a bit faster, you start to strategize better, you get more on edge. In short you become a better player because you have to if you want to survive. It's not simply a matter of choosing where to play anymore.
The majority of the mangband community, given the choice only play where they feel 'safe'. Tossing in players like myself and Ice leave no-where 'safe' and force you to either improve or die.[/quote]
Dang it, now they're going to send me flowers knowing that I'm not just this rabid frothing-at-the-mouth killer.
Thanks, Domino. Frickin' wookie!
First and foremost it entertains him. But it's not just that. He tends to prey on newer characters not because he can't kill old-timers, far from it. He's teaching you to be paranoid. That may sound odd at first glance but think about it. When you're paranoid in the dungeon your reaction is a bit faster, you start to strategize better, you get more on edge. In short you become a better player because you have to if you want to survive. It's not simply a matter of choosing where to play anymore.
The majority of the mangband community, given the choice only play where they feel 'safe'. Tossing in players like myself and Ice leave no-where 'safe' and force you to either improve or die.[/quote]
Dang it, now they're going to send me flowers knowing that I'm not just this rabid frothing-at-the-mouth killer.
Thanks, Domino. Frickin' wookie!
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.
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Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
- Iridescent Beetle
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Sun 27.10.2002, 21:16
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Re: PK Vote
[quote author=Domino link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=15#19 date=02/27/06 at 14:38:14]Nono, Kull was/is rabid. You're just annoying...
[/quote]
Oyeah, huh.
[/quote]
Oyeah, huh.
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.
Re: PK Vote
I think one of the easiest ways to reduce my pking would be the ability to ignore/silence players.
The majority of my pk's have been due to people just being stupid and bothering me via tells and/or global messages.
The majority of my pk's have been due to people just being stupid and bothering me via tells and/or global messages.
King of the Hill Baby!
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Avenger
- Skeleton 2-Headed Troll
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Re: PK Vote
I agree with Angus that an ignore option, or at least a temporary mute, would be a good feature for the next release of MAngband. I still don't know as much as I'd like to about the C language, but I doubt that it would be very difficult to implement.
Another thing I think would be a good idea is to have a trade feature like Runescape has, where you can trade with other players, see what each player offers, and make sure that you are getting the trade you want. As far as I know there have never been any problems with this in MAngband, since our community is for the most part made up of trustworthy people. However it wouldn't hurt to have a system like this, and it would also make unbalanced trades easier for the audit system to detect.
Another thing I think would be a good idea is to have a trade feature like Runescape has, where you can trade with other players, see what each player offers, and make sure that you are getting the trade you want. As far as I know there have never been any problems with this in MAngband, since our community is for the most part made up of trustworthy people. However it wouldn't hurt to have a system like this, and it would also make unbalanced trades easier for the audit system to detect.