MAngband

Okay, time for me to take a stand.  This doesn't affect me yet, 'cos I'm not really in the gear-selling market yet, but I forsee me doing so soonish.

To get the pleasantries out of the way first, Crimson, I respect and appreciate all you've done for the server...numerous bugs have been fixed, lots of things that should have been fixed a long time ago have been done so, and for this I'm grateful.

There's no love lost between Maegdae and me, but here I find myself almost championing for him.  Such is life.

Pricing, and the audit system, is getting a little retarded, in my opinion.  

*note* Maegdae dropping GDSM in town doesn't apply to this case, so don't bother bringing it up.

As it is now, people are to sell items to others for a "fair" price...yet there's no way to determine what these "fair" prices are.  I've heard people say "use AMPFI" (or whatever it's called) to find the prices...but I say "why bother?"

In my opinion, if something is going to be audited and watched for abuse, damnit, there MUST be a list of expected prices.  Domino used to enchant things up to +9+9 for (if I remember right) $1k.  Crimson last night said it should be $500 per +.  Which is it?

I hate going "sheesh, should I sell this to a player for $x?  Is it going to trip some audit flags?  Am I going to have to explain to Crimson why I didn't sell it for 3 times that amount?  Screw it, I'll just sell it to the shop and call it a day."

I figure if someone's got the cash, they should be able to buy whatever they want, as long as it's for sale.  There's no checks in the stores to make sure no one that's level 3 buys a +8 speed ring...just that they have the cash.  It doesn't make any difference to me if I sell something to a level 10 that probably shouldn't have it...he/she will most likely die and lose it anyway, and, well, if they don't, good for them.  I fail to see how balance enters any of these arguments, as the same level 10 I just sold the gear to could go buy it from the shop if I don't sell it to him/her.

So what do we do?  Dump selling to other players all together?

What about gear in a group?  If I'm grouped with someone a couple of levels below me, and I've got gear he wants, and he's got stuff I want...what's wrong with swapping it, ESPECIALLY if we're diving and it's stuff that's been found on the floor?

I can understand the desire for balance...but, in all reality, the dungeon does a pretty fair job of weeding out the people who really shouldn't be playing at any great depth...so why mess with it any more?

Again, Crimson, I understand this is YOUR server, YOU'VE done all the work, and you're entirely within your right to change and modify whatever you desire...but there's got to be some sort of standard which everyone can easially find and apply...so that there's no confusion when a level 35 character gets hosed for selling GDSM for $1k.

 I think Bigjuan has some good points here.  However, there IS one basic price comparison.. selling to stores.  Unfortunately, this can get very out-of-whack.  I have had a storekeeper in shop 2 offer me barely 60k for a Balance Dragon Scale Mail.  That's at level 50 with 18/90 charisma.  Does that mean that I can sell the same Balance DSM for 60k to some enterprising level 30 person? I generally try not to sell items for less than shop price, but selling balance dsm for 60k is alot more unbalancing than selling gold dsm for say 10-20k....

Since there is no accurate way, short of selling items to a shop owner of your race with high CHR and seeing what that owner sells it back to you for... you need external help. Most people ballpark it and pad up a little, making a nice profit. Sometimes knowingly making over 1000% of the current store owner's bid. This is the real reason I made the StoreWiz. Yeah, the previously untold inside story... So, suppose you have a dagger. Sure, you can look up the price for a naked dagger in the info files. But what happens when it gets branded and/or enchanted? You have to look up and understand the calculations in the source code. Same deal for rings, staves, wands, armors, and anything that can have charges, variable or random bonuses, ego bonuses, or enchantments. Artifacts? Forget it, there's no way to know their real value. So that's where the StoreWiz comes in. (Yeah, it's part of AMPFI, which is now discontinued.) Just load up the items, and optionally the ego bonuses or artifacts. Then you can select an item, press F12 to get to the storewiz, and add its charges/enchantments and ego bonuses... and voila, a reasonable estimate. Of course, it's no good for HA's or anything that gives random abilities or powers, but it gives you a good idea of a base price. So, as far as I know, that's the only viable way to tell an item's worth after it gets more complex than the base type.

But most of us just don't want to download a program and have to use it every time we sell something. We have to worry about getting audited every time we sell stuff because there is no way to tell what is allowable or not. According to Crimson, there are several hundred active players not counting level 1 players, and we have about 46 people on the forum. I doubt most people will know the rules.

That's a good point, Ashi.  I mean, I've got AMPFI (I think that's what it's called), but it took me some time to figure how to determine how much a single stack of arrows was...let alone enchanting them.

I found myself going "good god, I wouldn't pay that much for that in a shop!"

One arrow....ONE...according to AMPFI, enchanted to +9+9 is $1801.  ONE ARROW.  From what I can find, it's $100 per + on anything.

Crimson said it should be $500 per +.  So, for +9+9 arrows, you're looking at $18,000...and, as I understand it, that's per arrow...but really, even for a stack of 99 arrows that's silly bordering on foolish.

It's this kind of inconsitancies that we need to clear up.  It's these kinds of things that make people worry about audit flags and drawing attention to themselves from Crimson.

But hey, if we're gonna do that, no problem...I'll just buy arrows, enchant them to +9+9 and sell a bundle of 99 to the shop for $178,299 every chance I get  :P

Stacks? No problem. Just change the "Quantity".

Note: Arrows are not among the things I've properly programmed into AMPFI. I'll have to make a java crapplet or something, and put it on a webpage. Sigh, the motivation to take on a project that big is almost there, too.

You only need offer to sell 1 of any item to get a suggested price.  After you've done this a few times, you'll get a sense of the discount being applied due to race/class, and chr.

Never sell anything, though, below this suggested base.  It's generally wise to add to it (since,  afterall, you are seeking to profit from the transaction, aren't you?)

The prices of arrows are so high because arrows are so valuable.  +9+9 arrows can basically save your life, frequently.  I do not see any appreciable repricing about to happen.

Just as a point of reference, I bought 60 +0+0 arrows today at lunch, then enchanted them all up to +9+9.

I tried selling 1 arrow to the weapon shop, I was offered a whopping 75 gold.  For a powerful +9+9 weapon?!  An outrage!

I immediatly ran to the general store, and tried selling one of these uberarrows...and got offered $60.

$60?!?!?!?!  What is this?

I ran back to the weapon shop and immediatly my whopping $4500.

*note*  these figures are rounded...I can't remember if I was offered $72, $77, etc...$75 is a good, round number

Now, how do we value enchanting items again?  I'll reproduce this test again when I get home with some no-name weapons and armor, and see what AMPFI say they should be sold for, to see if they're even close.  I'm hazarding a guess and will say they're not, but we'll see later.

So, what's the answer?  Increase the price that shops buy and sell + items for?

I, for one, aren't going to charge someone $500 per plus to enchant something up.  I might charge $1000 to enchant something to +9+9,  or armor to +9, but $500 per plus is insane.

The thing to remember here is enchantments count *per item* not *per stack*.

That +9,+9 stack of arrows is 5au *per point* of enchantment (to either hit or damage) *per item*, a normal +9,+9 arrow is 1au + (18*5)  = 91au.  a stack of 99 of these arrows is now (99 * ((18*5)+1)) or 9009 au.

Given that stores never sell +9,+9 arrows, the second adjust ment you need to make is for rarity.  The player can't get these on his own, it's fair to reap a decent profit.  My suggestion is x2 the price.  (The bm x3's it).

This raises the price to 18,018au for a 99 wide stack of +9,+9 normal arrows. (twice what a store will offer).

I've no idea where you came up with the multi-thousand dollar au costing.  The agreement was 10/arrow/pt, 100/weapon/pt, which is directly in line with what I just laid out.