Player Killing

[Maegdae]

    I request that all peaceful players of Mangband stop all dealings with Person V.  (medium level mage and level 50 priest)He attacked and killed my character and ghost.  Thankyou

[Berendol]

It wouldn't surprise me if you earned that somehow. I'd be careful about a post like that, because it could earn you way more deaths than you otherwise would have had. Let's hear the story... including all the things you said and did.

[Maegdae]

 I am quite surprised by the bias evident in your post.  It shows quite a different attitude then your previous one on the same subject ;D  The fact is, Person V killed me.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on him to provide a good reason for such an action.  I don't believe such a reason exists.  

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

I'd call being annoying cause enough.

You were on with, who, Marv?  I can't remember exactly who it was.  You were offering to sell something to someone, and he inquired as to what you were selling.

You replied with a smart-assed response like "you're a priest, you should figure it out".

He then promptly killed you for being a smart ass, when you could have easially gone "oh, I'm selling <whatever>".  Mebbe he would have offered you a better price than Marv.

Also, when someone asked me to save them, I said no, and you promptly began to ridicule me for it..."if someone of your size dies at 1100 (or whatever level it was...it was less than 1500), you really do suck".

When he killed your body, you then started being even MORE annoying.

"Hey, Marv, the fool fell for it!  He killed me!"

(Oh, and note to Marv: if this ISN'T you, my apologies...and apologies to whomever was dealing with Maegdae if it wasn't Marv)

[Domino]

Aye... Just because Varguar couldn't figure out what item was being sold via it's base price doesn't give you call to mouth off and call him names.  Of course it's a free world and insulting people is your perogative but you need to deal with the consequences.  Call ME names and I'll pkill you too..

As far as Berendol's bias well.. WE KNOW YOU.  And quite frankly you're very irritating most of the time.  Most people deal with irritating things in thier environment by getting rid of them  ;D

[Berendol]

Quite different than my previous post? My post on PK'ing? I did specifically say "Making the game environment generally worse by your chatting" which covers your rude comments and harassment. I believe your in-game deaths were for acceptable reasons. I replied to your post knowing your tendencies to annoy people, and referred to the fact that you have made a permanent statement to the world against Martos/Varguar.

This is what I originally meant, and this is what you didn't infer from my remarks: By making such a statement, you have given him and any of his friends a reason to be upset EVERY time they look at these forums. Since posts here are permanent, it's one of those gifts that keeps on giving. Death. To you. Not too bright, kid. I'd refrain from doing that ever again. Especially when your ghost just died, and the player in question is level 50. I expect good judgment from my superiors, and I believe they exercised it.

Alright, so you say I'm biased. Well I must admit that quite often you've annoyed me enough that I had to quit playing for days or weeks on end in order to suppress my rage, and several times I was angry enough to get the urge to destroy things in RL. The words Livid, Enraged, and Furious come to mind. Be thankful I quit playing instead of killing your character every time I had the impulse. Now, if you would learn to stop your INCESSANT WHINING and other behaviors I would expect from a 6 year old child, things like this wouldn't happen. Now, as for his death, freak accidents happen. The RNG is cruel. Deal with it. You remember how your previous character died, right? Freak accident on a level you normally played on? Well don't smirk when it happens to someone else because it happened to you. Quite frankly I'm annoyed even more by your continuation of this, and yet more by your insinuation of my inconsistency. I would advise you to  grow up and move on with your in-game life. Be a man, Maegdae, and let it go. Let it go. Even if you didn't deserve it in your own mind. It's time to leave childhood.

[Maegdae]

   Bigjuan, you're statement is not a replica of what I said.. more like "If you can't figure that out, you don't deserve to know;"  A snappy comment, that I shouldn't have made, but the fellow had offered the item for a greatly reduced price, until he realized it was worth quite a bit more, at which time he stopped selling it.  I didn't want to tell Person V what the item was.  Berendol, if that's your opinion of me, fine.  If you are saying that any comments I made previous to my death were enough to rightly get me killed, hey, thats fine too.  I've endured a whole lot worse verbal abuse when I was big, and I never killed anybody for it.  I don't quite know what my previous death had to do with it.. my previous death was fighting Morgoth , and I knew there would be quite a large chance of losing.  What point are you trying to make there?  I couldn't believe Person V would kill me without a valid reason.  Turns out he had reason enough in the view of the Mangband community; I won't argue with that.  I wasn't meaning my post to people to People wh who support person V; I was merely telling anybody who might agree with me what happened, as I might not be playing for awhile.  
(Berendol, right now, the only person naming the culprit permanently is you... there is an edit post function.)
I am not arguing about this issue... I am not "whining" about it.. I am merely telling anybody who thinks as I do about Mangband Pk'ing what happened.  Mangband should be an enjoyable game.. I play it to get AWAY from arguments/nastiness.  If I am disrupting that for several people (which I am), then I'll leave.    

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

Maegdae, you're right, to a point.  You DID say something like ""If you can't figure that out, you don't deserve to know", but that doesn't detract from the fact that you basically got lippy with someone who is much larger than you, and Varguar killed you for it.

That's all I'm saying.  I could give 2 rips about it.  You didn't try to kill me when I restarted on the server, and, in fact, you could have hosed me several times.  You didn't.  I, in turn, could have surpressed you after you died to Morgy, and I didn't...mainly because of the courtsey you showed by not trying to kill me (in fact, you saved me at least once).  However, mouthing off to people WILL get you killed.  It happened on the last server, and it shouldn't be a big shock to you now.

[Maegdae]

 Bigjuan, I treat people the same whether I am bigger than them or not.  Being level 40 does not give you any more right to kill someone who is level 20 cause they made a comment you didn't like.  I regard high level players killing low level ones as extremely suspect.  If Varguar had asked for an apology, I would have given him one.  Unfortunatley, he decided to talk with his sword.  Yes, I shouldn't have said that.. but we all say things we didn't mean.  I've had many people (including everybody who has posted on this subject so far) say things to me that were a were a whole lot nastier than my comment to Person V, yet I never killed any of them for those remarks.  He's made quite a few comments to me that are quite alot worse, yet I didn't pk him for them.  
      Perhaps this could spawn a new wishlist option: No PK.  Players would have to get permission from the admin to enable this option (otherwise it could be used by trolls/spammers(no offence to half-trolls) and such).  Players with the option
enabled wouldn't be able to either give or take damage in melee combat from other players. (The methods used in Berendol's earlier post are often less effective except for the arrow one)  
       I know several people who don't like pk, and after being killed by Person V I had several people tell me how much they abhor the deed but are afraid of having the same thing happen to them.
       Berendol, I am quite saddened by your repeated attempts to demean my character.  I respect you quite alot, so I can't figure out what prompts the constant accusations of my being annoying/whiny/immature.  Is "The words Livid, Enraged, and Furious come to mind. Be thankful I quit playing instead of killing your character every time I had the impulse" a mature way to deal with things? You usually weren't the only one to have to leave Mangband in those situations.  I haven't really seen you much since dying to Morgoth.  Before then, there was no possible way (except for the arrow in store method) of your disposing of me, so I don't quite understand what I had to be thankful for ;D  

[Berendol]

Oh, I had ample opportunity before you passed me in c-level. And many times I was tempted, because you have a knack for pushing all the right buttons. Sometimes I wonder if maybe you don't realize you're doing it, so I give you the benefit of the doubt and do nothing hoping that you learn something from the abuse you get back from the other guys. Apparently you didn't, so I have laid it all out here. Nothing's yet unsaid after this post. As for your high level.. numerous times I quit playing for several weeks, which gave you plenty of time to pass my level. And you definitely did. Good for you. I don't deny you learned how to play much better since I first met you. You've also matured a bit, as evidenced by your last post. But you still should curb your sudden impulses to start things like this thread. Sure, I might look like a huge jerk now that you've conveniently edited your posts to make them less offensive. I won't take any of this back until I see no further reason for my comments to exist. I stand by my words, and if someone else can learn from this whole unfortunate experience, even better.

Notice that I don't speak any untruths. Everyone I know complains about your in-game chatting. We'll all be grateful if you tone it down. In-game, I do treat you with all due respect, even though I may be less than impressed with your recent behavior. I'm sure you remember some of the many business transactions between us.

To summarize everything I've said to you, to date: Tone it down and we can all be happy. (We meaning you, me, and everyone else.)

Now, enough of this stupid finger pointing, let's get back to playing. Here, Wraithy... come to Berendol!

[Maegdae]

 The only editing done to my posts the removal of certain specific names.  Persons reading your post could get a different impression ;D

[Volrak]

I haven't played mangband for a while now (yeah, the mud i was playing came back up), but i thought i'd add a comment.

Maegae never annoyed me once.. maybe i have high tolerance, or maybe he was just nice to me.  Either way, i didn't relate to most of the comments about how annoying he is.. but whether or not he was truly annoying doesn't affect the main point i want to make.

The main thing i wanted to say is that PKing in a game like mangband, as a means of conflict resolution, and when used as a standard response instead of a 'last resort', can be destructive to the fabric of the game.

A high level player can usually kill a low level player extremely simply, and i'd guess it wouldn't be too hard to go after the ghost too.  That means anybody high enough level can simply remove a lower level player from the game, if they feel like it.  If it's a bad reason, will the admin restore the dead character?  I don't know for sure, but i can't see restorations happening, barring a bug.

So.. all we need is 1 or 2 high level players who prefer to prove their masculinity by pking, rather than actually trying to resolve issues by dialogue, and suddenly every time anyone looks at them wrong, another player might lose their character.. for many people, this kind of attitude from others can make them feel like not coming back.

For the sake of mangband, talk your problems over, if they're real issues.. it's just as childish to mouth off as it is to be incapable of taking it good-naturedly.  If someone doesn't have the self control to hold back words they shouldn't say, then reacting with anger proves nothing except that you don't have enough self control either to simply laugh it off or ignore it.

[Fink]

Apology accepted Big_Juan_Teh_Furby.
It was Goner alias Goatherd that Megdae teaming with.

I was level 47 and not logged in at the time, and had no buisnis at 1100 feet.

I find it real BAD for a level 38 to kill a level 22.
And then to proceed to kill the ghost, thats real evil. (in my eyes)

Really, Really, Annoying is maybe cause, but never to wipe someone out.

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

Oyeah, that's right, Goner, not Marv.

Thanks, Marv!

[Domino]

On Volrak's issue of childishness I have this comment.  Self restraint is of course nessesary for adult interaction.  However at some point it becomes nessesary to take further actions.  How many times do you put up with crap before taking a stand?  Something that hasn't come up in this thread was that this wasn't a single issue.  Maegdae and Varguar have not particularly liked each other for quite a long time.  Now that being said I can also say that Maegdae is not quite the paragon of pkilling restraint that you all think he is.  He has quite openly admitted in the past that the only reason he didn't pkill Bigjuan and Martos/Varguar etc was because he was afraid that I would pkill him in retaliation.  He has also played a few games with other people IE: Changing his computer name, creating a new character and running around pkilling newbies.  Admittedly with a similarly low level character but still a turnaround from what he claims to represent.  

Personally I enjoy pkilling and I fully support it as being a part and parcel of the Mangband experience.  I think there hasn't been nearly enough pkilling in the game as stands.  Something you guys that are vehemently against pkilling need to remember is this..  This is a game.  It's a game with a singular goal that can be achieved by only one person at a time.  So in that regard Pkilling someone because they are in your normal xp range and you don't want to share it is acceptable.  Or if they have gear you think you need or want.  Sure I realize that most of us play 'nice' but in the theme of the game it's not nessesary and in some cases can be counter to your best interests.  Another thing to think about is this.  What options do we as players have when other players make rude and annoying comments?  Ignoring is fine...to a point.  But what happens when a person wont shut up?  Personaly I would like to lobby for an Ignore option so that we don't have to listen to people we don't want to hear.