This is Clive, and I'm done with this game. Instadeath with total gear loss is simply not fun, no matter how we try to justify its existence. Since I play games to have fun, mangband no longer qualifies as a way I shall be spending my time.
My Power Dragon Scale Mail is on 2800. Have fun with the chaos beetles.
And I'm not suiciding or selling my house, out of protest--a decent admin should show some respect to the people who actually play by cleaning out all the characters that haven't logged on in 6 months and freeing up their artifacts and houses.
Take care, folks. PM me if you want my email address.
Retiring
Re: Retiring
Sorry to hear that, Clive. Best of luck in your future gaming, wherever it may take you. And, keep in mind that MAngband isn't going anywhere - should you ever be tempted back, the game will still be here (heck, I've taken year long breaks, in the past. And, on that note, I tossed your loot in one of my houses).
Cheers bro!
-Fink
Now, not to be argumentative here, but:
That's a 16-item death drop. I don't quite see how we can characterize that as a "...Instadeath with total gear loss" scenario. That sure is one out of depth pit tho,: Chaos Beetles all over the place. But it was not at recall, nor did you stair inside it. You walked down a hallway wearing an esp crown, and the door to the pit presumably opened in front of you. I'm afraid I would have to paint this more as a "I walked straight into clearly-visible doom, and had a nice death-loot-drop when I got very understandably squished."
<edit> Hm. On further reflection, I realize you probably mean "total gear loss" in the sense that when you die, you drop all your gear. Yeah, if that doesn't work for you, you're out o' luck.
Cheers bro!
-Fink
Now, not to be argumentative here, but:
That's a 16-item death drop. I don't quite see how we can characterize that as a "...Instadeath with total gear loss" scenario. That sure is one out of depth pit tho,: Chaos Beetles all over the place. But it was not at recall, nor did you stair inside it. You walked down a hallway wearing an esp crown, and the door to the pit presumably opened in front of you. I'm afraid I would have to paint this more as a "I walked straight into clearly-visible doom, and had a nice death-loot-drop when I got very understandably squished."
<edit> Hm. On further reflection, I realize you probably mean "total gear loss" in the sense that when you die, you drop all your gear. Yeah, if that doesn't work for you, you're out o' luck.
Re: Retiring
This brings up the interesting basic issue at the heart of the MAngband experience. When an Angband player first fires up MAngband and dives on in, their response to finding out that your character file is not deleted the millisecond you die is generally "whoa, really? Man thats wierd. I guess that explains why people stash loot."
But when the non-Angband player checks out MAngband, they find the brutal and unforgiving death scenarios (relative to whats common in conventional RPG's and MMO's) to be chilling.
I guess I never really thought about it in quite these terms, but who exactly is MAngband marketed towards? Who is the intended MAngband player? The roguelike fan, or the more mainstream gamer?
The house complaint is legit. I don't know if the problem is houses that need to be reset, or instead just a lot of houses owned by sundry players who haven't returned in a long time.
Either way, I keep thinking that we need to be more realistic about housing: instead of artfully random little bits of houses, I call for some serious city planning. I think our town and out-of-town should be carefuly packed in a nice city grid with large houses, efficiently using the space there. People like to collect stuff - its fun! Making them buy a half dozen teeny little houses to house their loot is just icky.
The art complaint is an intresting one. I realize now that newer players suffere from a pathology (that I as well suffered from when newer) that makes them think "... man, if I just had some of those cool arts, I would suddenly really be kicking butt!".
I think there is an unrealistic perception of how good the artifacts are. In the hands of a player who is experienced, and knows what they are doing, artifacts are just what the doctor ordered to carefully get the jobdone. No artifact, however, is going to magically transform a not-yet-good player into a Machine of Doom and Mayhem who can forthwith stomp straight to the bottom and twiddle on Morgoth's boots.
But when the non-Angband player checks out MAngband, they find the brutal and unforgiving death scenarios (relative to whats common in conventional RPG's and MMO's) to be chilling.
I guess I never really thought about it in quite these terms, but who exactly is MAngband marketed towards? Who is the intended MAngband player? The roguelike fan, or the more mainstream gamer?
The house complaint is legit. I don't know if the problem is houses that need to be reset, or instead just a lot of houses owned by sundry players who haven't returned in a long time.
Either way, I keep thinking that we need to be more realistic about housing: instead of artfully random little bits of houses, I call for some serious city planning. I think our town and out-of-town should be carefuly packed in a nice city grid with large houses, efficiently using the space there. People like to collect stuff - its fun! Making them buy a half dozen teeny little houses to house their loot is just icky.
The art complaint is an intresting one. I realize now that newer players suffere from a pathology (that I as well suffered from when newer) that makes them think "... man, if I just had some of those cool arts, I would suddenly really be kicking butt!".
I think there is an unrealistic perception of how good the artifacts are. In the hands of a player who is experienced, and knows what they are doing, artifacts are just what the doctor ordered to carefully get the jobdone. No artifact, however, is going to magically transform a not-yet-good player into a Machine of Doom and Mayhem who can forthwith stomp straight to the bottom and twiddle on Morgoth's boots.
Re: Retiring
In my defense, I was teleported to the site of death. Right in front of the door there. Normally, I don't go anywhere near an animal pit. I am guessing that you think I'm just another whiner, but you of all people ought to know better. If I had started at the east end of that hallway, I would not have even made it to where I died.
I only mentioned the lack of unfound artifacts as further evidence of the game's stagnation. Gear is NOT the limiting factor which makes the game not fun.
I will also throw in that I've been disappointed by the lack of grouping for a long time. It ends up basically being angband plus chat, trade and twitch skills. Chat and trade are nice and all, but playing together was, in my opinion, the factor to offset the difficulty that comes with real time play.
And sure, you can get a rescue or have your surviving gear retrieved. But waiting around to maybe get some gear back != fun. If nobody's around, bye bye gear.
I like the old terminal graphics. I like real-time play. I even got used to using macros. I think mangband is fun up to 2000ft, but I've never found anyone cooperating much deeper than that unless it was a powerful person helping someone level.
It would almost be better if there were no ghosts or rescues at all. Then people might work together out of necessity, especially after 2000ft. I would be willing to bet that it originally was that way, and ghosts were added because fixing instadeath was too hard.
Anyway, the bottom line is that fun games attract players, and not-fun games stagnate or lose players. Which describes mangband?
I only mentioned the lack of unfound artifacts as further evidence of the game's stagnation. Gear is NOT the limiting factor which makes the game not fun.
I will also throw in that I've been disappointed by the lack of grouping for a long time. It ends up basically being angband plus chat, trade and twitch skills. Chat and trade are nice and all, but playing together was, in my opinion, the factor to offset the difficulty that comes with real time play.
And sure, you can get a rescue or have your surviving gear retrieved. But waiting around to maybe get some gear back != fun. If nobody's around, bye bye gear.
I like the old terminal graphics. I like real-time play. I even got used to using macros. I think mangband is fun up to 2000ft, but I've never found anyone cooperating much deeper than that unless it was a powerful person helping someone level.
It would almost be better if there were no ghosts or rescues at all. Then people might work together out of necessity, especially after 2000ft. I would be willing to bet that it originally was that way, and ghosts were added because fixing instadeath was too hard.
Anyway, the bottom line is that fun games attract players, and not-fun games stagnate or lose players. Which describes mangband?
Re: Retiring
I gotcha on the tele deal - the odd placement of your loot was kind of kooky and inexplicable heh.
You mention that "... Gear is NOT the limiting factor which makes the game not fun.". Oddly, I feel the exact opposite: because the game is *not* about gear, but instead about hard-won skills that let you stay alive deeper and deeper as you come to know the game better, I was drawn in from casual play to more serious play.
I remember when I hit level 50 with my first character. Like a lot of newer players, I was scared to go much below 2k - the pool suddenly gets very deep at that point. It struck me that as I was now level 50 with maxxed stats, it was over - the game was going to give my character nothing more in terms of abilities or stats to make me more powerful: it was now up to me to get better. I remember mentioning to a friend at the time "man, I'm only one third of the way through the dungeon, and Im done leveling! Da hell!!?". It was both chilling, and kind of awe-inspiring, to then begin to grok what the game is about, as I stood there at 2k with no more bonuses waiting for me: the game is purposefully nearly impossible, and only knowledge and personal skills grown over time (skills which I continue to grow, and have a lot more growth left to do!) will give you a fighting chance to get to, and be at, the bottom.
I've mentioned it before, but Crimson's quote about the game really does summ it up: "You have to understand, the purpose of the game is to kill you as quickly and efficiently as possible. You're not supposed to win. Ever."
You mention, in closing, that "...fun games attract players, and not-fun games stagnate or lose players." I agree here, in the same way that the card game Uno attracts millions of kids and the Ironman Triathlon attracts a hardened, wizened few. Both are a fun challenge, but each has a very different intent.
You mention that "... Gear is NOT the limiting factor which makes the game not fun.". Oddly, I feel the exact opposite: because the game is *not* about gear, but instead about hard-won skills that let you stay alive deeper and deeper as you come to know the game better, I was drawn in from casual play to more serious play.
I remember when I hit level 50 with my first character. Like a lot of newer players, I was scared to go much below 2k - the pool suddenly gets very deep at that point. It struck me that as I was now level 50 with maxxed stats, it was over - the game was going to give my character nothing more in terms of abilities or stats to make me more powerful: it was now up to me to get better. I remember mentioning to a friend at the time "man, I'm only one third of the way through the dungeon, and Im done leveling! Da hell!!?". It was both chilling, and kind of awe-inspiring, to then begin to grok what the game is about, as I stood there at 2k with no more bonuses waiting for me: the game is purposefully nearly impossible, and only knowledge and personal skills grown over time (skills which I continue to grow, and have a lot more growth left to do!) will give you a fighting chance to get to, and be at, the bottom.
I've mentioned it before, but Crimson's quote about the game really does summ it up: "You have to understand, the purpose of the game is to kill you as quickly and efficiently as possible. You're not supposed to win. Ever."
You mention, in closing, that "...fun games attract players, and not-fun games stagnate or lose players." I agree here, in the same way that the card game Uno attracts millions of kids and the Ironman Triathlon attracts a hardened, wizened few. Both are a fun challenge, but each has a very different intent.
Re: Retiring
That quote strikes me as nothing but a convenient justification for not making effort to address gameplay issues.
Now, I certainly wouldn't want mangband to become too easy. However, I'm going to reveal a little secret: It's not hard to write (or, dare I say, maintain) a game that is, by design, almost impossible to win. But if you did...
...nobody would want to play it.
And what is the point of a game if there are no players?
Now, I certainly wouldn't want mangband to become too easy. However, I'm going to reveal a little secret: It's not hard to write (or, dare I say, maintain) a game that is, by design, almost impossible to win. But if you did...
...nobody would want to play it.
And what is the point of a game if there are no players?
Re: Retiring
Furthermore, stop editing your posts while I'm typing. 
Re: Retiring
Sure, but I do note myself a number of others playing, so I don't think we are at a true level of impossibility just yet 
But, to forestall a possible descent into wheedling you when you've had frustrating experience, I'll defintiely agree that our beloved variant does have some rough edges to it yet ("patches welcome", as Crimson would say) and that there are conventions in play that non-roguelike people can understandably find to be painfully onerous.
But, to forestall a possible descent into wheedling you when you've had frustrating experience, I'll defintiely agree that our beloved variant does have some rough edges to it yet ("patches welcome", as Crimson would say) and that there are conventions in play that non-roguelike people can understandably find to be painfully onerous.
Re: Retiring
Most of the few players you do see only dive to 2k or so. There are what, three or four semi-active players who go super deep? Let's call them Elite players--they are able to succeed without fighting alongside others. Say, then, that for all non-elite players, cooperation is required to survive at significant depths.
A multiplayer game cannot afford to lose above-average players simply to stroke the egos of the elite players. Who will the other non-elites cooperate with? How will the game ever break its very real downward spiral into obscurity?
A multiplayer game cannot afford to lose above-average players simply to stroke the egos of the elite players. Who will the other non-elites cooperate with? How will the game ever break its very real downward spiral into obscurity?
Re: Retiring
Sad to see you leave so soon Clive, I haven't been playing much lately but you've seemed like a nice guy and definitely a good player, so I hope you'll stick around. There'll be other servers, there'll be other admins, there'll be better days.
So much could be said about MAngband's balance and gameplay, there are many issues and many problems or "problems" - depending on how you look at it.
MAngband has a long history of being a game for and by the "elite" (in some ways at least), many of us have dedicated crazy amounts of time both to playing and developing this, it's been much more than just a game.
The reason for this might be that MAngband gives the great player a much larger edge than any other game I've played, thats just the facts, in vanilla you can get away with many things, MAngband is unforgiving and the RNG just doesn't care if you're doing your best.
Your death is a great example of this.
You say you wouldn't go near the zoo.
Still you played the level.
Playing a level means you could run into stuff that teleports you or you might need to teleport yourself.
Thats a risk you take when you decide to play.
This point seems crazy maybe, but thats the way you must think to truly minimize the risks.
So the question is, do we want a game where people have to think of _everything_ ?
I started playing Zaphod when the server was already old and established, most of the artifacts was found and the players who had them were inactive (for the most part). Yet this didn't stop me, I played from level 1 to level 50, found my own gear, didn't buy anything from anyone and I could still hit level 50 somewhat comfortably.
But apart from the TECHNICAL details, like this, I agree 100% with you, admin should pay attention and inactive characters should be dealt with. For the best of the community.
Sadly both the maintainer and the biggest inactive players
could be considered part of the "elite" - in various ways. Upwards and down. We're better than you - style. The maintainer is busy and allthough I feel he often _wants_ to be helpful and nice I think it might be difficult for other reasons. I really appreciate the few good discussions/helpful chats I've had with him and for that I feel I can't totally trash his work.
Anyway, I'm tired and it's been some busy weeks so my head is not totally clear.
Think that'll be all. Hope you'll stick around, you might find the Ironman server to be more satisfying. It's not at all as hellish as some people might think. Just a fun, short game that might last longer than a couple of hours if you're lucky.
So much could be said about MAngband's balance and gameplay, there are many issues and many problems or "problems" - depending on how you look at it.
MAngband has a long history of being a game for and by the "elite" (in some ways at least), many of us have dedicated crazy amounts of time both to playing and developing this, it's been much more than just a game.
The reason for this might be that MAngband gives the great player a much larger edge than any other game I've played, thats just the facts, in vanilla you can get away with many things, MAngband is unforgiving and the RNG just doesn't care if you're doing your best.
Your death is a great example of this.
You say you wouldn't go near the zoo.
Still you played the level.
Playing a level means you could run into stuff that teleports you or you might need to teleport yourself.
Thats a risk you take when you decide to play.
This point seems crazy maybe, but thats the way you must think to truly minimize the risks.
So the question is, do we want a game where people have to think of _everything_ ?
I started playing Zaphod when the server was already old and established, most of the artifacts was found and the players who had them were inactive (for the most part). Yet this didn't stop me, I played from level 1 to level 50, found my own gear, didn't buy anything from anyone and I could still hit level 50 somewhat comfortably.
But apart from the TECHNICAL details, like this, I agree 100% with you, admin should pay attention and inactive characters should be dealt with. For the best of the community.
Sadly both the maintainer and the biggest inactive players
could be considered part of the "elite" - in various ways. Upwards and down. We're better than you - style. The maintainer is busy and allthough I feel he often _wants_ to be helpful and nice I think it might be difficult for other reasons. I really appreciate the few good discussions/helpful chats I've had with him and for that I feel I can't totally trash his work.
Anyway, I'm tired and it's been some busy weeks so my head is not totally clear.
Think that'll be all. Hope you'll stick around, you might find the Ironman server to be more satisfying. It's not at all as hellish as some people might think. Just a fun, short game that might last longer than a couple of hours if you're lucky.
-- Mangband Project Team Member
Re: Retiring
I just lost 35, 000, 000 and 7th place in the standings. Hundeby has nothing left but his ethereal self! I admit I am pretty frustrated with losing my key and that gear and gold. I have other characters to play, but I feel pretty much out of the race now. I am sure I know how Clive has felt.
I see that this game is not intended to please the skilled. I am either damned by the Mangband gods or my skills are not as honed as my few contemporaries.
I think rubbing the RNG the right way is the only way to succeed. Cheers, Fink for figuring that out! Wish you could share that essence with me. My luck runs out with a bang.
Unless you think I can get back up to where I was before I might as well suicide as I have not even 1 gold to Hundeby's name. none of my other characters have the $ or the gear to get where Hundeby was.
Maybe that is my problem; I figure it is my equipment that carries my achievement in this game. I am most likely been deceiving myself about how skilled I am. I feel my time with mangband has finally run out. my confidence is shattered.
This very thing has happened about 5-10 times where my key gets ejected from my Inventory on death. I don't mind dieing if I know I have something to fall back on. When everything gets stripped from me I feel like starting from scratch or not playing at all.
I don't want to discourage people from playing it! I do want to warn others not to get into the game unless you can handle spending endless amounts of time only to be dropped -like a mill stone dropped in the sea.
I see that this game is not intended to please the skilled. I am either damned by the Mangband gods or my skills are not as honed as my few contemporaries.
I think rubbing the RNG the right way is the only way to succeed. Cheers, Fink for figuring that out! Wish you could share that essence with me. My luck runs out with a bang.
Unless you think I can get back up to where I was before I might as well suicide as I have not even 1 gold to Hundeby's name. none of my other characters have the $ or the gear to get where Hundeby was.
Maybe that is my problem; I figure it is my equipment that carries my achievement in this game. I am most likely been deceiving myself about how skilled I am. I feel my time with mangband has finally run out. my confidence is shattered.
This very thing has happened about 5-10 times where my key gets ejected from my Inventory on death. I don't mind dieing if I know I have something to fall back on. When everything gets stripped from me I feel like starting from scratch or not playing at all.
I don't want to discourage people from playing it! I do want to warn others not to get into the game unless you can handle spending endless amounts of time only to be dropped -like a mill stone dropped in the sea.
Re: Retiring
I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. I don't play much these days for the same reasons - I don't like losing months of hard work, even if someone might help me regain part of it later. I just haven't got time to waste like that. I'll go play some Wario Ware if I want to play a game for a few minutes and it's over. I'll pull out one of the Final Fantasies, Zelda, Earthbound, Secret of Mana, WoW, my LOTRO open beta, or some other RPG if I want to play something for a few weeks. Those games aren't over when you die.. you start over from a save point or something similar to it.
The key loss issue is exactly what inspired me to create keyless houses, and preliminary support for party-accessible houses.
I would like to mention something that many *Angband players have in common with gambling addicts, though. (Now that's a great way to win public opinion, self!) This isn't a spoiler, nor is it going to be heavy on numbers. The RNG is more accurately known as a pseudo-random number generator due to its implementation as a series of tables. It just goes to the next one, the next one, and the next one, even while you sit there and do nothing. After all of my years of investigation in the actual code that drives it, I can conclusively tell you that it is NOT something you can seed by causing various events, nor is it ever "ready to drop the big one"... you get what you get, and sometimes it happens to look like something else caused it. The reason people see patterns is simple psychology: Our brains, in order to make sense of the massive amount of input they receive, condense almost everything to patterns. That's how you can filter out noise, for example. My screen is dusty right now, but I'm focusing on the text, so I don't see the dust unless I actively try to. So whether you're trying or not, your brain is trying to form a conclusive pattern, and it ignores things that fall outside of the most likely pattern. You may or may not consciously think "Hey, that looks like this causes it." Dice rolls are a good approximation for our RNG... there's nothing about it that's predictable. Create Stairs isn't Create Up Every Other Time, it's random - random number generators may occasionally create strings of the same thing, or they may not - because they are random. Creating code that causes other behavior strips the randomness away. It's that randomness that gives dungeons their flavor.
I've watched over the shoulders of several game winners as they scummed the bottom for speed rings. They have skill, definitely, but they also know what to avoid on a level - exactly what Warrior was talking about. I will power-level a new character to 20 around 1400' sometimes, because I know what to look out for. There isn't always something you can do about stairing into stuff, which could be dealt with by way of short-term invulnerability when entering a new level AND a guarantee of no mobs on staircases, but the thing is... that's not in the code right now.
Yes, the game is supposed to be difficult. I made sure that my variant had new challenges for good players who sought them out, and new rewards for overcoming those challenges. I firmly believe the "you're not supposed to win" mentality was NOT ever intended by the coders of Moria, or Angband... it's a disease to the game, which causes players to bleed out of the system. It's supposed to take more skill and less luck than it currently does. The above quote implies the opposite.
Don't blame it on your network connection, since I've found that a lot of monster-induced lag is due to the server drawing and redrawing stuff.
It would be great to have the party system reworked, such that parties could have multiple leaders, and "recruiters" who would be promoted to leaders when the leader dies or leaves. That would probably help a bunch, maybe even create that type of bond seen in various MMOs under the names of "guild" or "clan"... although I disagree with some of the things that typically inspires.
Whew, late. Gotta run. I wasn't expecting to post tonight.
The key loss issue is exactly what inspired me to create keyless houses, and preliminary support for party-accessible houses.
I would like to mention something that many *Angband players have in common with gambling addicts, though. (Now that's a great way to win public opinion, self!) This isn't a spoiler, nor is it going to be heavy on numbers. The RNG is more accurately known as a pseudo-random number generator due to its implementation as a series of tables. It just goes to the next one, the next one, and the next one, even while you sit there and do nothing. After all of my years of investigation in the actual code that drives it, I can conclusively tell you that it is NOT something you can seed by causing various events, nor is it ever "ready to drop the big one"... you get what you get, and sometimes it happens to look like something else caused it. The reason people see patterns is simple psychology: Our brains, in order to make sense of the massive amount of input they receive, condense almost everything to patterns. That's how you can filter out noise, for example. My screen is dusty right now, but I'm focusing on the text, so I don't see the dust unless I actively try to. So whether you're trying or not, your brain is trying to form a conclusive pattern, and it ignores things that fall outside of the most likely pattern. You may or may not consciously think "Hey, that looks like this causes it." Dice rolls are a good approximation for our RNG... there's nothing about it that's predictable. Create Stairs isn't Create Up Every Other Time, it's random - random number generators may occasionally create strings of the same thing, or they may not - because they are random. Creating code that causes other behavior strips the randomness away. It's that randomness that gives dungeons their flavor.
I've watched over the shoulders of several game winners as they scummed the bottom for speed rings. They have skill, definitely, but they also know what to avoid on a level - exactly what Warrior was talking about. I will power-level a new character to 20 around 1400' sometimes, because I know what to look out for. There isn't always something you can do about stairing into stuff, which could be dealt with by way of short-term invulnerability when entering a new level AND a guarantee of no mobs on staircases, but the thing is... that's not in the code right now.
Yes, the game is supposed to be difficult. I made sure that my variant had new challenges for good players who sought them out, and new rewards for overcoming those challenges. I firmly believe the "you're not supposed to win" mentality was NOT ever intended by the coders of Moria, or Angband... it's a disease to the game, which causes players to bleed out of the system. It's supposed to take more skill and less luck than it currently does. The above quote implies the opposite.
Don't blame it on your network connection, since I've found that a lot of monster-induced lag is due to the server drawing and redrawing stuff.
It would be great to have the party system reworked, such that parties could have multiple leaders, and "recruiters" who would be promoted to leaders when the leader dies or leaves. That would probably help a bunch, maybe even create that type of bond seen in various MMOs under the names of "guild" or "clan"... although I disagree with some of the things that typically inspires.
Whew, late. Gotta run. I wasn't expecting to post tonight.
By appreciation, we make excellence in others our own property. (Voltaire)
Re: Retiring
I feel your sense of frustration man.
You definitely have had a lot of painful deaths over the last couple of years .
It sounds like its time for a break from MAnng for you - but always keep in mind that mangband aint going anywhere, and will persist when you find your sense of frustration has worn off. So, off to vacation with you, and we'll be here when you get back.
You definitely have had a lot of painful deaths over the last couple of years .
It sounds like its time for a break from MAnng for you - but always keep in mind that mangband aint going anywhere, and will persist when you find your sense of frustration has worn off. So, off to vacation with you, and we'll be here when you get back.
Re: Retiring
Saturday morning and I am willing to put 6 hours into getting back in the running... we will see how it goes.
Clive, do you need a save? I can get you one. What depth are you at... The ladder shows that you have some stashed gear. you should be up and running in a matter of minutes.
Get back at it... if I had any gear left I would be right back at it. Just to quit because you died isn't a very good excuse. Yes it is high stakes but that is what puts a thrill in playing.
It took a little sleep to convince me I can beat this dismay, feeling of waist.
I guess it is nice to have somewhere to vent frustrations. The real test is if we can get back on the road again.
Clive, do you need a save? I can get you one. What depth are you at... The ladder shows that you have some stashed gear. you should be up and running in a matter of minutes.
Get back at it... if I had any gear left I would be right back at it. Just to quit because you died isn't a very good excuse. Yes it is high stakes but that is what puts a thrill in playing.
It took a little sleep to convince me I can beat this dismay, feeling of waist.
I guess it is nice to have somewhere to vent frustrations. The real test is if we can get back on the road again.
Re: Retiring
Hundeby! You can't leave!
The server will be reset and everyone will start over!
....But to get to the point(s).
This game is intended to please _AND_ frustrate the skilled. Don't tell me you're not pleased when you kill a tough opponent and he drops something amazing for you :p
Because, all though fight for fight the game might be like... if @ > D - YOU WIN! but usually, because of the RNG the game keeps on taking us by surprise.
To continue Berendols comment on gambling, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. In the long run, if you're a good player you'll win more than you lose.
in MAngband, the randomness sometimes results in finding an awesome thing at 1k when you need it the most, other times it results in recalling into time hounds only to have your ghost thrown close to Tselakus only to drift away from the level with 1 hp and get that final stab from another player throwing away a large steel chest in the direction where your ghost pops up. And when you put months or even years into a character - of course dying sucks.
But, point one: That is the game, it's same with real life, if you didn't know there was an end to it, many of us would probably have rather strange lives, as there'd be no risk, no contrast, no nothing. It'd be meaningless to play a game with no risk of dying. (I know some people feel different). The big problem however is that for the great player, who _will_ get the right equipment eventually... there is just pretty much nothing that can kill him.
So the only way to die is if the game throws something totally unexpected at you, if your connection lags or if you screw up yourself. This should be done in a better way, obviously. We gotta give players a chance to die themselves and give them reasons to want to risk it.
Considering the relatively few deaths to hounds on recall/stairs, especially compared to variations of:
Hounds on recall and on stairs should probably be dealt with but I'm not sure the idea about adding GoI around stairing/recalling is the way to go. It could be, if other means to kill the player is introduced. If not it pretty much takes away the only way for good players to get killed.
You mention your confidence in your skills has been shattered and thats a very bad feeling, maybe especially because skill is, in my opinion difficult to define, it's more a matter of playing style and maybe even personality. It's hard to comment on others people's playing style and skill level as such since we rarely see what they're actually doing and we might not even then be able to understand whats going on.
Usually we have to just judge players based on what level they are and what they're able to kill. You're definitely a good player and shouldn't doubt your skills. Not to mention you're a very nice guy and I've really enjoyed being on the same server as you
I am pretty sure however that you have a more risky playing style than I have. For my character Zaphod the priority has always been staying alive. Other players might have gaining exp or gaining loot or going as deep as possible or killing the toughest opponents as their priority.
You've played Hundeby for ages and you've died many times, many cruel deaths, you've lost keys and equipment again and again. Maybe it is right to retire him, not yourself. He has had a long and rich mangband life and a good share of wealth, fame and fortune.
And, hopefully there might be a permanent solution to the key problem sometime soon
The server will be reset and everyone will start over!
....But to get to the point(s).
This game is intended to please _AND_ frustrate the skilled. Don't tell me you're not pleased when you kill a tough opponent and he drops something amazing for you :p
Because, all though fight for fight the game might be like... if @ > D - YOU WIN! but usually, because of the RNG the game keeps on taking us by surprise.
To continue Berendols comment on gambling, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. In the long run, if you're a good player you'll win more than you lose.
in MAngband, the randomness sometimes results in finding an awesome thing at 1k when you need it the most, other times it results in recalling into time hounds only to have your ghost thrown close to Tselakus only to drift away from the level with 1 hp and get that final stab from another player throwing away a large steel chest in the direction where your ghost pops up. And when you put months or even years into a character - of course dying sucks.
But, point one: That is the game, it's same with real life, if you didn't know there was an end to it, many of us would probably have rather strange lives, as there'd be no risk, no contrast, no nothing. It'd be meaningless to play a game with no risk of dying. (I know some people feel different). The big problem however is that for the great player, who _will_ get the right equipment eventually... there is just pretty much nothing that can kill him.
So the only way to die is if the game throws something totally unexpected at you, if your connection lags or if you screw up yourself. This should be done in a better way, obviously. We gotta give players a chance to die themselves and give them reasons to want to risk it.
Considering the relatively few deaths to hounds on recall/stairs, especially compared to variations of:
- "summoned ***** on me"
- "breathed poison twice in a row"
- "confused and blinded me"
Hounds on recall and on stairs should probably be dealt with but I'm not sure the idea about adding GoI around stairing/recalling is the way to go. It could be, if other means to kill the player is introduced. If not it pretty much takes away the only way for good players to get killed.
You mention your confidence in your skills has been shattered and thats a very bad feeling, maybe especially because skill is, in my opinion difficult to define, it's more a matter of playing style and maybe even personality. It's hard to comment on others people's playing style and skill level as such since we rarely see what they're actually doing and we might not even then be able to understand whats going on.
Usually we have to just judge players based on what level they are and what they're able to kill. You're definitely a good player and shouldn't doubt your skills. Not to mention you're a very nice guy and I've really enjoyed being on the same server as you
I am pretty sure however that you have a more risky playing style than I have. For my character Zaphod the priority has always been staying alive. Other players might have gaining exp or gaining loot or going as deep as possible or killing the toughest opponents as their priority.
You've played Hundeby for ages and you've died many times, many cruel deaths, you've lost keys and equipment again and again. Maybe it is right to retire him, not yourself. He has had a long and rich mangband life and a good share of wealth, fame and fortune.
And, hopefully there might be a permanent solution to the key problem sometime soon
-- Mangband Project Team Member