BigJuan is a Punk!

[Avenger]

Bigjuan, I have no problem with you bringing new players to the game, but that doesn't mean you need to make other players leave. Its not as if you had to drive someone away to make room for the new player, and I do not agree that it is acceptable to justify your actions by saying 'Oh I brought a new player to the game to replace the one I drove away.'

I also think Sanjuro makes a good point about the actual purpose of the multiplayer aspect of this game, that is, cooperation. If you want to get competitive, go play Guild Wars or Runescape or World of Warcraft, or any number of other games with stabilized PvP environments. I don't mean that you should leave MAngband to do this, just that when you feel like killing someone play another game, and when you're on MAngband, try to be helpful, and less quick to kill somebody because you find them annoying.

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

Duly noted.  However, I return that back at you...if you don't like the ability to kill and be kill, might I suggest that you go somewhere where it's restricted...like, say, non-pvp WoW or GW?

It's a facet of this game, and one I do rather well at.  I'm sorry you don't enjoy it, but I do.  However, until the ability to attack other players is removed, I shall continue doing it.  I DO try to avoid the randomness of Kull's attacks, and I do help people as I see fit.

But thank you for your feedback, and best of luck to you.

[Berendol]

A proposal for you gentlemen:

What would you think if we removed the ability to destroy a player ghost? You could still kill each other, but not totally destroy someone.

Note that if your gear is gone and you're flat broke, you're pretty much done for a while anyways.

Maybe this would be a good solution.

[Avenger]

Bigjuan, I do in fact play other games, particularly Runescape, which is one of the reasons I have been absent from MAngband for so long.

Also, as I have stated before, I do respect your style of pking up to a point, especially when compared to Kull's. I just don't like to see people leave because of it.

I do not want to see you and Angus and Varguar leave MAngband, and I respect all of you for your skill in the game.

Best of luck to you as well.

Berendol, removing ghost pking might be a good idea, and I do not think there would be too much opposition to the idea, however, it might be argued that ghost killing is as much a necessary part of the game as normal pking. Someone like Kull can recover his experience and gear too quickly, and if someone was being particularly whiny, it would be a pain to have to sit there and listen to them without being able to do anything about it, or even threaten them with doing something about it.
However, these problems could be handled by an active server admin, and overall I think it would benefit the community.

-Avenger

[Domino]

What I find amusing is that any time Bigjuan or I pkill someone, regardless of method or reason, we're 'bad for the game'.

And yet the community soldiers on.  We still see new people, the old people are addicted to one extent or another (we all take breaks) and the cycle goes on.

If we wanted to be bad for the game is there realy any doubt that he or I could mop the floor with all of you?

Even when a server reset happens, how long before I'm at the top of the ladder once I decide to play?

Now most of the time we play on our own or are helpful.  I don't think there's an old-timer here that I haven't rescued or sold some needed piece of gear to at one point or another.

And I can't realy think of too many people that have quit playing completely soley due to our actions.

In fact I've seen it happen that people come BACK to playing after there being a player lull simply because I'm active and they know that there's someone around who will rescue them (and I do 90% of the time or more when asked and often unasked as well).

You all need to chill and realize that different people play for different reasons.  And while I like other people being around, they are not necessary for my playing experience.

And sometimes, just sometimes, I feel like taking someone out and beating them about the head and shoulders just because I can.  Other times I feel like taking someone out and showing them some of the tricks I've learned and help them become a better player.

However if you want to paint me as the bad guy, well I can certainly oblige and become the horror that you seem to think I am.  Kull doesn't have 1/10th the skill I do.  If I wanted I could make him seem like an annoying child in comparison.

[Narchan]

I think that people need to recognize that player killing is part of Mangband, just like player killing is a part of many other online role-playing games.  Heck, this is an online game and there are (sometimes) other people playing it.  Sometimes they help you and sometimes they kill you.  Obviously mindless pking is wrong (Kull being the prime example), but other forms are ok.  While I'd rather not be quoted on this, sometimes I actually enjoy having to run for my life from a <gasp> intelligent player instead of an AI monster that can't even navigate around a corner.  Also, with pk, there is alot more suspense because of the stats and such of the other player are quite unkown.  I do think that there should be limitations on pking though.  I think the town should definately be a safe point.  I believe that right now the rules forbid pking in town, but I think it should also be hard-coded (or maybe it is...haven't played in awhile).  As for removing the pking of ghosts, this sounds like a good idea.  Then if you pked someone you would have to watch your back for when he comes running at you equiped with that gear he had stashed in a house  ;D  The only thing that would also have to be implemented would be the ability to ignore certain players, so you don't have to listen to someone's ghost scream and cry after you pk them.

Note: mindless pking = killing newbies, killing someone who does not have any equipment that you want, or killing someone that poses no threat to you

[sanjuro]

It's not even really about the actions that I'm seeing on the server.  It's all about the ego mentality.

Some of you PKers out there are jerks plain and simple.  Whether you're PKing me or not, I don't enjoy playing games with jerks.  It ruins the game experience for most of the other players.

I'm not worried about the growth of the community, I'm worried about the health of the community.  I'm worried that the few PKers are having fun at the expense of the majority that don't enjoy it.  Just because the game allows it doesn't make it fun for the vast majority.

And the fact that PKers have fun BY ruining the fun of others is totally jerky and should be frowned upon by any responsible admin.  If the admins here can't see that then I'll branch my own version that won't allow it.

[Anyar]

[quote author=sanjuro link=board=rescue;num=1140030838;start=45#51 date=02/17/06 at 20:30:56]It's not even really about the actions that I'm seeing on the server.  It's all about the ego mentality.

Some of you PKers out there are jerks plain and simple.  Whether you're PKing me or not, I don't enjoy playing games with jerks.  It ruins the game experience for most of the other players.

I'm not worried about the growth of the community, I'm worried about the health of the community.  I'm worried that the few PKers are having fun at the expense of the majority that don't enjoy it.  Just because the game allows it doesn't make it fun for the vast majority.

And the fact that PKers have fun BY ruining the fun of others is totally jerky and should be frowned upon by any responsible admin.  If the admins here can't see that then I'll branch my own version that won't allow it.[/quote]
Uhh... Thats not a branch, thats turning off a flag in the config.h file. Also, I don't really get what you're saying. For me, playing under pressure just improves my skill, and provides more excitement than playing a slow tactical game just gaining xp. And if you ever bother to try and not whine at the pkers, you might find that they arent all huge jerks, and they are actually decent people. Acting like you're five and the world should be everything you want it to be is just stupid. Either live with pking and play the game, or don't.

[Big_Juan_Teh_Furby]

[quote author=Anyar link=board=rescue;num=1140030838;start=45#52 date=02/17/06 at 20:42:30]
For me, playing under pressure just improves my skill, and provides more excitement than playing a slow tactical game just gaining xp. And if you ever bother to try and not whine at the pkers, you might find that they arent all huge jerks, and they are actually decent people. Acting like you're five and the world should be everything you want it to be is just stupid. Either live with pking and play the game, or don't.[/quote]

And that, Anyar, is why you'll do quite well at this game.  Bravo.

[sanjuro]

I would just like to see this be a fun game with a cool online community.  Not a place to run and hide from the bullies.  If you enjoy the excitement then that's fine, it puts you in the category of those in favor of allowing PKing.

I am in the category of those not in favor of allowing PKing.  I'm just shocked that there is so much blatant jerkiness going on around here.  And you're calling me a five year old.

And I would start a new branch because I wouldn't disallow PKing globally.  I would like to see the inclusion of a guild system and allow matches and duels.

[Anyar]

I would just like to see this be a fun game with a cool online community.  Not a place to run and hide from the bullies.  If you enjoy the excitement then that's fine, it puts you in the category of those in favor of allowing PKing.

I am in the category of those not in favor of allowing PKing.  I'm just shocked that there is so much blatant jerkiness going on around here.  And you're calling me a five year old.

That wasn't directed only at you, it was directed at everyone who was (IMO) overreacting about the pking.

And I would start a new branch because I wouldn't disallow PKing globally.  I would like to see the inclusion of a guild system and allow matches and duels.

You mean the party menu? And those can be organized, but generally dont happen much, because people don't like to risk their characters.

[sanjuro]

Yeah, like the party menu but with the ability to have rival parties or organize party on party fights or something.  Not to directly copy Guild Wars but that could add a cool vicious battle aspect.  Parties could set up different win/loss scanarios, like a friendly match where no one who dies really dies, all the way down to ghost killing is the only way to win.  But it's up to the players to decide the terms.

This conversation has derailed, however.  We do need some form of PK reform.  I understand people like to do it, and I snapped at them, and I'm kind of sorry I did but I really am turned off by some of mentality I've seen displayed here.

Most everyone I've played with is frustrated with the system as it is now.  So I feel like I'm speaking for the majority and I'm hoping it's just this forums tendency toward low activity that keeps them from backing me.

But maybe I'm way off base.

[MunkYBoY]

okay well you can quit whinning cuz branmuffin has made a server and is working on eliminating pkilling from it. it has no fancy name just an ip address. k bye

[Fink]

Great to hear all the explanations about why pkilling is such an integral part of the game from people who haven't been around in a fricking year - a year when the rest of us have spent time slowly building a new player base so that you old farts could roll back and ruin the work we've done, and drive away players. Thanks.

[Anarchy_Inc.]

To the free peoples of mangband:

     In light of bigjuan's assholedom, and the many  players who have jumped ship, let it be known that kull the insane will hang up his rusty axe, and end his reign of inanity. Although he will likely only be playing on the ironman server, rest assured that no longer will he attack other players, with the exception of himself.